ATST Snippet #4

Dilandu wrote:

ChronicRder wrote:
At this point what does either the Harchong Navy or NoG have that can intercept a fleet that tries to land troops on West Haven? Do they have troops/forts that are even staged to counter such a move?

Hm. Mines?

The Charisians already basically tell Church everything they need to know about landmines. It wouldn't really be hard for Church to comprehend the idea of naval mines as well (the way to battlefield rockets was much more complicated)

Mines are a solution, but they'd have to have something on the waves to deploy them. Mines would also only buy them time, it wouldn't stop an invasion. At best, it'd buy the Church time, but time to do what? With what? Unless their MH can break out of the mountains in the Border States, they cant do anything except react. There's there the original question of deployment. Do they have minelayers, either purpose built or re-outfitted for carrying and deploying mines? Then, are those minelayers in position to begin doing so before those other 2 ironclads show up?

Really, the Union managed to field 15% of their population in the military in the ACW? I thought the maximum sustainable even with modern agriculture was 10 or 12%? Mind you I really don't know a great deal about the ACW.

ChronicRder wrote:
Mines are a solution, but they'd have to have something on the waves to deploy them. Mines would also only buy them time, it wouldn't stop an invasion. At best, it'd buy the Church time, but time to do what? With what? Unless their MH can break out of the mountains in the Border States, they cant do anything except react. There's there the original question of deployment. Do they have minelayers, either purpose built or re-outfitted for carrying and deploying mines? Then, are those minelayers in position to begin doing so before those other 2 ironclads show up?

The mines are, basically, the only current solution that Church could trew against Charisian steam-powered ironclads. Their main advantage - they are relatively indifferent to the technological superiority. The "King Haarahld", with all its mockery of common sense, could be pretty well disabled by the anchored mine, containing nothing beyond the XVIII-century technology. Of course, the probability of such lucky hit is not large, but the mines would clearly force Charisians to held their ships away from coastlines and ports.

Dilandu wrote:The mines are, basically, the only current solution that Church could trew against Charisian steam-powered ironclads. Their main advantage - they are relatively indifferent to the technological superiority. The "King Haarahld", with all its mockery of common sense, could be pretty well disabled by the anchored mine, containing nothing beyond the XVIII-century technology. Of course, the probability of such lucky hit is not large, but the mines would clearly force Charisians to held their ships away from coastlines and ports.

True enough. Mines and IEDs are simple, low tech solutions to high tech problems. But they still have to deploy them. I can't really think it'd be that hard or take that long to re-fit a schooner or brig to be a minesweeper.

ChronicRder wrote:
True enough. Mines and IEDs are simple, low tech solutions to high tech problems. But they still have to deploy them. I can't really think it'd be that hard or take that long to re-fit a schooner or brig to be a minesweeper.

For the pure defensive purposes this would be simple enough. The main problem is to put the mine on the right depth: without some buoyancy controller, the only way would be the old-fashioned "measure the depth, cut the cable of exact length" style. Time-consuming, must admit - but for static defenses of harbors, straits and triver inlets all right.

The active mining, on the other hands... Technically it's not hard to slip some small schooner during night and drop some mines near Charisian-controlled object. But the depth would be a problem. The idea of active mining is, generally, that the minelayer could lay the mines fast, and run away before it would be destroyed. So, the "measure the depth, cut the cable of exact length" would not work. And, it's pretty dangerous to haul rapidly the primed mines with primitive flintlock mechanisms.

Two things are needed for the active mining:

1) Delay salt tablets - basically a chunk of salt which keeps the detonator from accidental acting. After the mine is dropped overboard, the salt tablet would gradually dissolve, and free the primer mechanism.

2) Buoyancy depth controller - the mechanical device to provide automatic depth control during minelaying. Basically the float with short cable above the mine, which (as soon as it's break the surface) would stop the mine emersion on pre-set depth.

Dilandu wrote:..snipp..
Two things are needed for the active mining:

1) Delay salt tablets - basically a chunk of salt which keeps the detonator from accidental acting. After the mine is dropped overboard, the salt tablet would gradually dissolve, and free the primer mechanism.

2) Buoyancy depth controller - the mechanical device to provide automatic depth control during minelaying. Basically the float with short cable above the mine, which (as soon as it's break the surface) would stop the mine emersion on pre-set depth.

A bit of trivia, during WW2 the British MD1 (aka Churchill's Toyshop) developed mines to be used on the German controlled rivers.

Upon dropping them into the river they sank to the bottom and used a time-delay consisting of aspirin-pills dissolving in water. When the pills dissolved the water came into contact with a substance that produced gas to inflate a bladder and the mine started to float downstream. This caused some havoc and disruption among the German shipping.

Back to the possibility of using mines on Safehold, as it currently stands it would be a bad idea to introduce mines since EoC currently dominate the seas. If the AoG comes up with the idea themselves it's something EoC have to deal at that point, but giving the AoG the idea.. no thanks..

Joat42 wrote:
Back to the possibility of using mines on Safehold, as it currently stands it would be a bad idea to introduce mines since EoC currently dominate the seas. If the AoG comes up with the idea themselves it's something EoC have to deal at that point, but giving the AoG the idea.. no thanks..

Well, they already observed Charisian land mines & naval demolition forces. It wouldn't be really hard for AoG to plus two and two and came to the idea of naval mine.

Dilandu wrote:

Joat42 wrote:
Back to the possibility of using mines on Safehold, as it currently stands it would be a bad idea to introduce mines since EoC currently dominate the seas. If the AoG comes up with the idea themselves it's something EoC have to deal at that point, but giving the AoG the idea.. no thanks..

Well, they already observed Charisian land mines & naval demolition forces. It wouldn't be really hard for AoG to plus two and two and came to the idea of naval mine.

AFIK the AoG's only original weapon is the rockets, everything else has been copied although with their own twist in some cases.

But I guess we'll see what kinds of bright ideas Brother Lynkhyn has, although it seems that the Inquisition isn't too happy about him.

Not even the rockets are original, AAMOF. Someone recovered a nozzle plate from an expended Charisian signal rocket, and Brother Lynkyn took it from there.

Mind you, there's no question that he _ran_ with it, and a marvelous long way. However, his real genius is in manufacturing and getting the most from the least. It's the Dohlarans who have had the one totally original idea to appear on the mainland. That we've seen, that is. [To be fair, we don't know exactly what the path was to the sling-grenadiers, but I assume that it started from discussions with AOG vets who'd seen mortars and hand-grenades used on them.]

Joat42 wrote:

Dilandu wrote:Well, they already observed Charisian land mines & naval demolition forces. It wouldn't be really hard for AoG to plus two and two and came to the idea of naval mine.

AFIK the AoG's only original weapon is the rockets, everything else has been copied although with their own twist in some cases.

But I guess we'll see what kinds of bright ideas Brother Lynkhyn has, although it seems that the Inquisition isn't too happy about him.

Joat42 wrote:

Dilandu wrote:..snipp..
Two things are needed for the active mining:

1) Delay salt tablets - basically a chunk of salt which keeps the detonator from accidental acting. After the mine is dropped overboard, the salt tablet would gradually dissolve, and free the primer mechanism.

2) Buoyancy depth controller - the mechanical device to provide automatic depth control during minelaying. Basically the float with short cable above the mine, which (as soon as it's break the surface) would stop the mine emersion on pre-set depth.

A bit of trivia, during WW2 the British MD1 (aka Churchill's Toyshop) developed mines to be used on the German controlled rivers.

Upon dropping them into the river they sank to the bottom and used a time-delay consisting of aspirin-pills dissolving in water. When the pills dissolved the water came into contact with a substance that produced gas to inflate a bladder and the mine started to float downstream. This caused some havoc and disruption among the German shipping.

Back to the possibility of using mines on Safehold, as it currently stands it would be a bad idea to introduce mines since EoC currently dominate the seas. If the AoG comes up with the idea themselves it's something EoC have to deal at that point, but giving the AoG the idea.. no thanks..

IIRC, not aspirin-pills, but a type of sweet known in the UK as a gobstopper (aka jawbreaker in the USA and Canada) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobstopper