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Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert

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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by OrlandoNative   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:59 am

OrlandoNative
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Location: Florida

Annachie wrote:I wonder how many Charisian church propertis Charis bought on the sly?

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Why buy *any*?

In effect, the Church of Charis already owns most of them, at least those not actively being used by the Temple Loyalists. For that matter, maybe it considers it owns *them* as well, and only leases them back for $0 rent.

If Charis wins, the question becomes moot anyway. They have no legal obligation to honor any bill of sale issued by the CoGA. If they lose, it also doesn't matter, though for an obviously different reason.

There's really no incentive for Charis to spend money that's only going to end up going into the economies of the areas still under CoGA control. Money leaving, yes. Money going in, no.

It would be like the US purchasing German "War Bonds" in WWII; or German's purchasing ours.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by Annachie   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:06 am

Annachie
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Assuming that the COG survives, and that is likely to happen, and that the Church of Charis remains seperate, which it likely will, then the COG still owns the buildings.

So avoid the legal troubles, and possible publicity problems, and buy them first.

You're assuming that the Church will be obliterated. It wont be.

And that being accused of stealing Church property wont cause problems, chances are it will.

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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:53 am

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Annachie wrote:Assuming that the COG survives, and that is likely to happen, and that the Church of Charis remains seperate, which it likely will, then the COG still owns the buildings.

So avoid the legal troubles, and possible publicity problems, and buy them first.

You're assuming that the Church will be obliterated. It wont be.

And that being accused of stealing Church property wont cause problems, chances are it will.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Any peace settlement with the COGA will include their renunciation of all rights to Church property in the Empire to the Church of Charis.
========================

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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by OrlandoNative   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:49 am

OrlandoNative
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Posts: 361
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Location: Florida

Annachie wrote:Assuming that the COG survives, and that is likely to happen, and that the Church of Charis remains seperate, which it likely will, then the COG still owns the buildings.

So avoid the legal troubles, and possible publicity problems, and buy them first.

You're assuming that the Church will be obliterated. It wont be.

And that being accused of stealing Church property wont cause problems, chances are it will.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

LOL, I think schismatics are always accused of stealing *something*, because the original faith they came from usually doesn't want to give them any shred of legitimacy.

That said, I've never encountered anything one way or another in world history as to whether during/after the Protestant reformation or the formation of the Anglican church whether what were originally Roman Catholic churches were just appropriated for the new faiths, bought, or just new church's built. I'm sure the facts are there somewhere, but it's never been something, to my knowledge, any history class ever actually addressed. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if it turned out to be a mix of "all of the above".

As for Safehold, the Church of Charis is obviously *using* property that originally belonged to the CoGA, so *if* there's anyone who has a problem with the disposition of real estate, they would no doubt already made any such positions known, but we haven't actually *seen* any discussion or disagreement on the subject within the Charisian Empire to date. It's likely that the CoC considers itself heir to the CoGA; and thus retains ownership of any former CoGA property within the Empire's boundaries that they want to keep.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by zyffyr   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:37 am

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Posts: 110
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OrlandoNative wrote:
Annachie wrote:Assuming that the COG survives, and that is likely to happen, and that the Church of Charis remains seperate, which it likely will, then the COG still owns the buildings.

So avoid the legal troubles, and possible publicity problems, and buy them first.

You're assuming that the Church will be obliterated. It wont be.

And that being accused of stealing Church property wont cause problems, chances are it will.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

LOL, I think schismatics are always accused of stealing *something*, because the original faith they came from usually doesn't want to give them any shred of legitimacy.

That said, I've never encountered anything one way or another in world history as to whether during/after the Protestant reformation or the formation of the Anglican church whether what were originally Roman Catholic churches were just appropriated for the new faiths, bought, or just new church's built. I'm sure the facts are there somewhere, but it's never been something, to my knowledge, any history class ever actually addressed. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if it turned out to be a mix of "all of the above".

As for Safehold, the Church of Charis is obviously *using* property that originally belonged to the CoGA, so *if* there's anyone who has a problem with the disposition of real estate, they would no doubt already made any such positions known, but we haven't actually *seen* any discussion or disagreement on the subject within the Charisian Empire to date. It's likely that the CoC considers itself heir to the CoGA; and thus retains ownership of any former CoGA property within the Empire's boundaries that they want to keep.



RE: Catholic to Angican....

The Catholic Church doesn't actually own most of the Churches/Cathedrals outside of the Vatican itself. Sub-organizations do.

Individual churches/cathedrals are owned by the congregation itself. They are responsible for the initial construction, any maintenance needs, and to pay the actual wages for the priest(s).

A small portion of each congregations revenue is passed upwards to the Diocese, which is used to pay for administrative overhead and supporting the Bishop. Some is held aside for Diocese-wide projects and as a reserve in case individual parishes have temporary shortfalls. The only real say the Bishop has in the operations of the individual parishes is his responsibilty to chose which priests are assigned.

Some of the Diocese funds get passed upwards to the Archdiocese. Same thing as above, but in this case Archbishop instead of Bishop and a larger area.

And then, the Archdiocese passes some funds up to the Vatican...

When the Anglican church split off, all that happened was that the link from Archbishop to Pope was replaced by one from Archbishop to King. Since the Church itself didn't actually own the buildings, the only thing 'stolen' was Authority.

Now, the property of the various Orders (Monks/Nuns) is a different situation. In that case, the individual facilities really did belong to the order and not the local members. So, when the Crown decided to seize THOSE properties it really was stealing in the form of Eminent Domain. Of course, by that point they really didn't much care what the Catholics thought about it.
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:12 am

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zyffyr wrote:
OrlandoNative wrote: quote="Annachie" Assuming that the COG survives, and that is likely to happen, and that the Church of Charis remains seperate, which it likely will, then the COG still owns the buildings.

So avoid the legal troubles, and possible publicity problems, and buy them first.

You're assuming that the Church will be obliterated. It wont be.

And that being accused of stealing Church property wont cause problems, chances are it will.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk /quote
LOL, I think schismatics are always accused of stealing *something*, because the original faith they came from usually doesn't want to give them any shred of legitimacy.

That said, I've never encountered anything one way or another in world history as to whether during/after the Protestant reformation or the formation of the Anglican church whether what were originally Roman Catholic churches were just appropriated for the new faiths, bought, or just new church's built. I'm sure the facts are there somewhere, but it's never been something, to my knowledge, any history class ever actually addressed. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if it turned out to be a mix of "all of the above".

As for Safehold, the Church of Charis is obviously *using* property that originally belonged to the CoGA, so *if* there's anyone who has a problem with the disposition of real estate, they would no doubt already made any such positions known, but we haven't actually *seen* any discussion or disagreement on the subject within the Charisian Empire to date. It's likely that the CoC considers itself heir to the CoGA; and thus retains ownership of any former CoGA property within the Empire's boundaries that they want to keep.



RE: Catholic to Angican....

The Catholic Church doesn't actually own most of the Churches/Cathedrals outside of the Vatican itself. Sub-organizations do.

Individual churches/cathedrals are owned by the congregation itself. They are responsible for the initial construction, any maintenance needs, and to pay the actual wages for the priest(s).

A small portion of each congregations revenue is passed upwards to the Diocese, which is used to pay for administrative overhead and supporting the Bishop. Some is held aside for Diocese-wide projects and as a reserve in case individual parishes have temporary shortfalls. The only real say the Bishop has in the operations of the individual parishes is his responsibilty to chose which priests are assigned.

Some of the Diocese funds get passed upwards to the Archdiocese. Same thing as above, but in this case Archbishop instead of Bishop and a larger area.

And then, the Archdiocese passes some funds up to the Vatican...

When the Anglican church split off, all that happened was that the link from Archbishop to Pope was replaced by one from Archbishop to King. Since the Church itself didn't actually own the buildings, the only thing 'stolen' was Authority.

Now, the property of the various Orders (Monks/Nuns) is a different situation. In that case, the individual facilities really did belong to the order and not the local members. So, when the Crown decided to seize THOSE properties it really was stealing in the form of Eminent Domain. Of course, by that point they really didn't much care what the Catholics thought about it.


In Canada at least, the Anglican diocese owns the churches as has been confirmed by several court cases regarding breakaway congregations which resented some of the changes made by the synod (the ruling body of the Anglican Church in Canada). Additionally, it should be considered that episcopal churches such as Catholic and Anglican are built by the diocese, not the congregation in areas where the need for a new church is felt. Undoubtedly the first few churches were built with help from the mother church.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by ChronicRder   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:44 am

ChronicRder
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:34 am
Location: Louisiana

So...
I think we've beaten the Church finances to death. Though not the extent that pesky captured Sollie SD thread was on the other forum. I think we can avoid that, don't y'all?
To sum up, the Church has to make something happen in the field this year (book time) or it gets even more drastic and dire. Even then, the Church could, in theory, seize absolute control and make stuff appear without making any kind of payment in the territories it directly controls. How effective that will be in reality is academic and way too debatable at this point. A lot will be determined by how Wind Song performs in the field this year and a combination of how long Dohlar lasts and how long it'll take the Alliance to sieze, repair, and reopen the Silkhiah canal. Are we all more or less in agreement in that regard?
I also wonder how Silkhiah will play out as I remember reading something early on in the series where the Duchy was on pretty decent terms with Charis before the war and were very hesistant to join the fray. Kinda like how New Zealand gets dragged kicking and screaming into things by Australia is how I read it.

Any chance of a compiled list of each side's fielded armies and navies (to include size and general composition), where they're positioned, and who's in command, and updated population estimates by State by this point in the war? I could live without the total population limits, if I could get a cheat sheet of armies and navies currently in play to work off of.
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by phillies   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:29 am

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How would that work? What would be the point?

Annachie wrote:I wonder how many Charisian church propertis Charis bought on the sly?

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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by Louis R   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:03 pm

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Rear Admiral

Posts: 1298
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I'm not sure that Wind Song's performance is that critical, although if he really falls down on the job it will create some difficulties for his uncle. Still, it's Rainbow Waters who's the commander of the MHOGATA, so it's up to him to get things right. And force his subordinates to keep them that way, which will probably prove a bigger challenge than outfighting Eastshare & Co.

Since the OP's questions have been answered, as far as we're going to get answers now, it's time for some thread drift: did anyone else notice how Baron Wind Song, at least, has clearly begun to value competence above birth? If that attitude has infected any significant percentage of the MHOGATA's officer corps [and I can't see how it won't] then Hell is testing its bindings in Harchong.


ChronicRder wrote:So...
I think we've beaten the Church finances to death. Though not the extent that pesky captured Sollie SD thread was on the other forum. I think we can avoid that, don't y'all?
To sum up, the Church has to make something happen in the field this year (book time) or it gets even more drastic and dire. Even then, the Church could, in theory, seize absolute control and make stuff appear without making any kind of payment in the territories it directly controls. How effective that will be in reality is academic and way too debatable at this point. A lot will be determined by how Wind Song performs in the field this year and a combination of how long Dohlar lasts and how long it'll take the Alliance to sieze, repair, and reopen the Silkhiah canal. Are we all more or less in agreement in that regard?
I also wonder how Silkhiah will play out as I remember reading something early on in the series where the Duchy was on pretty decent terms with Charis before the war and were very hesistant to join the fray. Kinda like how New Zealand gets dragged kicking and screaming into things by Australia is how I read it.

Any chance of a compiled list of each side's fielded armies and navies (to include size and general composition), where they're positioned, and who's in command, and updated population estimates by State by this point in the war? I could live without the total population limits, if I could get a cheat sheet of armies and navies currently in play to work off of.
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by ChronicRder   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:07 pm

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Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 108
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Louis R wrote:I'm not sure that Wind Song's performance is that critical, although if he really falls down on the job it will create some difficulties for his uncle. Still, it's Rainbow Waters who's the commander of the MHOGATA, so it's up to him to get things right. And force his subordinates to keep them that way, which will probably prove a bigger challenge than outfighting Eastshare & Co.


See why I'm asking for a list? Little things like getting Wind Song and Rainbow Waters mixed up is what I'm talking about.
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