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Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert

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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:41 pm

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OrlandoNative wrote:If you remember, Zhaspar reluctantly agreed to a "modification" of the tithing/taxation structure in Harchong which should have greatly increased the Church's income from that nation.

Also, there's some mention about taking product in lieu of actual money.

Also, for all intents and purposes, the Church has set up the equivalent of the Nazi's labor camps, with the same kind of philosophy, namely, "it's ok to work them to death as long as it accomplishes our goals".

And, even if they haven't quite resorted to it yet, the Church *could* theoretically just confiscate whatever they felt they needed without paying for it. After all, most of the armies of the nations they still "control" are not at home, but in Siddamark. By the time they got back, the Church and the Inquisition could take anything they wanted, along with hostages to ensure obedience.

For that matter, in places like Harchong they could totally victimize the nobles, and the serfs would probably cheer them on, rather than hinder them.

In Siddarmark there really isn't anything left to seize. The SoS pretty much took care of that, so that leaves the problem of shipping all of the stuff required forward, with all of the attendant problems.
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by OrlandoNative   » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:36 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
OrlandoNative wrote:If you remember, Zhaspar reluctantly agreed to a "modification" of the tithing/taxation structure in Harchong which should have greatly increased the Church's income from that nation.

Also, there's some mention about taking product in lieu of actual money.

Also, for all intents and purposes, the Church has set up the equivalent of the Nazi's labor camps, with the same kind of philosophy, namely, "it's ok to work them to death as long as it accomplishes our goals".

And, even if they haven't quite resorted to it yet, the Church *could* theoretically just confiscate whatever they felt they needed without paying for it. After all, most of the armies of the nations they still "control" are not at home, but in Siddamark. By the time they got back, the Church and the Inquisition could take anything they wanted, along with hostages to ensure obedience.

For that matter, in places like Harchong they could totally victimize the nobles, and the serfs would probably cheer them on, rather than hinder them.

In Siddarmark there really isn't anything left to seize. The SoS pretty much took care of that, so that leaves the problem of shipping all of the stuff required forward, with all of the attendant problems.

Well, Siddarmark wasn't exactly a revenue *producer* for the Church after the SOS, at that point no support was heading to Zion from there.

The original question was, why in some recent, previous books (previous to the last one, anyway) the Church appeared unable financially to continue pursuing the Jihad, yet now they seem so much better off. Remember that prior to the SOS even with Siddarmark's tithes HELPING they were still in trouble.

The main reasons that they at least appear to be able to continue are:

1) The Inquisition supporting the changes Duchairn wanted in tithing from Harchong

2) Taking product in lieu of monetary tithes (probably figured at cost rather than retail)

3) Slave labor where available

4) A PUBLIC change in attitude towards their own constituents. Namely, that the cost to their souls of not doing whatever might be necessary to win outweighed any suffering enduring in this physical world. In some ways, this was always the attitude of the Inquisition, but not really of the Church as a whole. That change allows them to basically extort anything they need from the citizenry, no matter what they offer in return. Or don't offer, as the case may be.

Even if the secular rulers have a problem with this, with their armies elsewhere there's not a lot they can actually *do* about it. As I noted before, by the time they could return home to protect their citizens from the Inquisition (assuming, of course, that the ruling elite even wanted or tried to) it would be too late.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by n7axw   » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:55 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
ChronicRder wrote:Really? I've studied Japan for several years and I'd always thought that the Russo-Japanese War gave Japan the modern and capital hulls it would need to go toe-to-toe with the Western Navies like the British, Germans, and US.
Always willing to do more research though. Any sources you can recommend other than wiki, Dilandu?


Sure:

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/ja ... eships.htm

Basically this is the online version of Convay's "All the World's Fighting Ships". If you like, I have actual Convay downloaded, but the data is solid.

The exact captured ships:

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_bb_iki.htm

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_bb_iwami.htm

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_bb_hizen.htm

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_bb_tango.htm

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_bb_suwo.htm

As you could see, those ships are generally outdated. Compare them with cotemporary Japanese (Britain-build) battleship. And the dreadnought age already started... so Japanese basically wasted money on restoration of old, worn-out XIX-century battleships, instead of building modern dreadnoughts.

In fact, if they wouldn't restore older russian battleships, they would have enough money to build "Aki" and "Satsuma" as dreadnoughts. They were forced to change the initial "all-big-gun" design to the less capable semi-dreadnought because they simply haven't got money for more heavy guns.

This is what ultimately killed Lee late in the American Civil War. He had guns and munitions, lots of them compared to the number of men he had, but he lacked food for his army and they gradually dwindled either to desertion or died to either starvation/malnutrition or, the fortunate ones, on the battlefield.


I really doubt that this is the right aproximation. Lee lacked food, uniforms & materials because they simply couldn't be provided by crumbling South industry. Even if Lee have all Clyntahn's Inquisitors on his side, they still wouldn't be able to change situation, simply because there were no more food, clothes, medicine to obtain.

The Church, on the other hands, still have tremendous industrial capabilities under control. And as long as they HAVE the physical ability to produce, they WOULD be able to produce food, materials and good for army.

Yes, they faced the phinancical crysis. So what? In their direct sphere of influence - in the Temple Lands - they could basically make peoples work for food, without any money involved at all. The combination of fear of Inquisition, religious propaganda and basic patriotism would allow them to boost war efforts even if there would be no gold coin left in Zion. If they would have no money to pay, they could go to the ration stamps. They could nationalize all food supplies in Temple Lands, and made distribution centralized, with all power of Inquisition to control the speculations.

Of course, EXTERNALLY the lack of funds would present significant problems. Especially considering that Deshnari are clearly NOT very eager to support Zion any more. But they have enough power to still control Harchong, with it's really large population.



Northern Harchong at least. Southern Harchong will soon be cut off by the sea. And that is where most of Harchong's industrial base is...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by DMcCunney   » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:27 pm

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ChronicRder wrote:
XofDallas wrote:Sadly, the replies to this point haven't addressed the questions raised in the original post. I regret to say I don't have the answers you need, but I'm just as curious about them as you are, I think.


Rabbit holes abound on forums. What can I say?
But I'm still hoping someone will answer my original questions on here
:)

I don't have the stats you were looking for on current populations levels, government organization and the like. I don't believe RFC has detailed a lot of it in the books yet.

The Church's financial condition is a bit easier.

Yes, they are hemorrhaging money, but who, outside of Duchairn and his staff, are fully aware of it? Mother Church has always had unquestioned solvency, so very few will really wonder about whether the Church can pay its bills.

If I were Duchairn, I'd start looking at issuing fiat currency instead of specie. The equivalent of commercial paper exists on Safehold in terms of things like letters of credit, redeemable for specie down the road. People the church buys things from will likely accept them and give Duchairn additional breathing room.

If Mother Church somehow defeats Charis, he can use the spoils of victory. If Charis wins, it ceases to matter whether the Church can redeem the paper.
_______
Dennis
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by Charybdis   » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:44 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:I don't have the stats you were looking for on current populations levels, government organization and the like. I don't believe RFC has detailed a lot of it in the books yet.

The Church's financial condition is a bit easier.

Yes, they are hemorrhaging money, but who, outside of Duchairn and his staff, are fully aware of it? Mother Church has always had unquestioned solvency, so very few will really wonder about whether the Church can pay its bills.

If I were Duchairn, I'd start looking at issuing fiat currency instead of specie. The equivalent of commercial paper exists on Safehold in terms of things like letters of credit, redeemable for specie down the road. People the church buys things from will likely accept them and give Duchairn additional breathing room.

If Mother Church somehow defeats Charis, he can use the spoils of victory. If Charis wins, it ceases to matter whether the Church can redeem the paper.
_______
Dennis

I forget which book, but Duchairn came out with the BRILLIANT scheme to sell the Charis-located Church properties. If the Church loses, the buyer is out of luck trying to collect. If Charis loses, the Church would buy the property it wants back. There will be interest paid BUT Charis taxes and ransoms and ... will pay for it!

The problem for Duchairn and the Church Treasury AND the Church as a whole, IS how long will the "Full Faith and Credit" (US Constitution Art.IV Sect.1) be sufficient? Yes, the CoGA started with the enormous advantage of absolute credit worthiness, no one had ever lost money (as far as was known) on Church Credit. Now, many years into a war that is going badly, where the most tithing-worthy territories have rebelled, how long will the credit be accepted?

Yes, they are a ruling theocracy, who is going to say no? Problem is that people have to have something with which to buy (ref. Venezuela & Zimbabwe) and the providers want value for their product. This is a case of diminishing returns and as the credit reputation shrinks (inflation), one has to move to alternatives. This generally means increasing use of force in the communities, otherwise people move to massive hoarding and commerce drys up. That force deprives the battlefront of personal while the unrest within makes for small but increasing rebellions.

It is a finite solution set, the CoGA has to win and win soon. In order to win, and keep commerce moving it has to have some visible and real victories. The propaganda machine of the CoGA is losing to OWL's superior abilities and that is not helping the CoGA at all! In spite of all the tyrannies of the past and their fevered efforts at keeping the people down, people are smart and realistic. At some point they will say, if the penalty for not eating is death and the penalty for rebellion is death yet I can eat if I rebel, the answer is no mystery.
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by DMcCunney   » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:37 pm

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Charybdis wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:The Church's financial condition is a bit easier.

Yes, they are hemorrhaging money, but who, outside of Duchairn and his staff, are fully aware of it? Mother Church has always had unquestioned solvency, so very few will really wonder about whether the Church can pay its bills.

If I were Duchairn, I'd start looking at issuing fiat currency instead of specie. The equivalent of commercial paper exists on Safehold in terms of things like letters of credit, redeemable for specie down the road. People the church buys things from will likely accept them and give Duchairn additional breathing room.

If Mother Church somehow defeats Charis, he can use the spoils of victory. If Charis wins, it ceases to matter whether the Church can redeem the paper.
I forget which book, but Duchairn came out with the BRILLIANT scheme to sell the Charis-located Church properties. If the Church loses, the buyer is out of luck trying to collect. If Charis loses, the Church would buy the property it wants back. There will be interest paid BUT Charis taxes and ransoms and ... will pay for it!
I think you may be misremembering.

After Charis defeated the combined fleets of Chisholm, Emerald, Corisande, Tarot and Dohlor, Hector of Corisande realized he'd need a new model navy to have any hope of fighting Charis, but didn't have the money in his Treasury to finance construction. His keeper of the purse suggested that Corisande and the Church had a common interest, and the Church might be expected to subsidize the cost. Given the blockade Charis could impose, the Church might not be able to supply actual specie, but letters of credit could be issued drawing against the Church, which would be accepted at face value or only slight discounting given the Church's solvency, and the Archbishopric of Corisande had funds enough to start the process while waiting for Zion to approve.

The Charisian Inner Circle were properly cynical. If it worked, it was worth every mark it would cost the Church. If it didn't, the letters of credit would be so much waste paper, and wouldn't cost the Church a tenth-mark because they would never be redeemed for actual precious metal.

It's possible I'm not remembering something, but I don't recall Duchairn doing something like this.

The problem for Duchairn and the Church Treasury AND the Church as a whole, IS how long will the "Full Faith and Credit" (US Constitution Art.IV Sect.1) be sufficient?
Exactly.

I did say it would give Duchairn breathing room, but at some point the wheels come off the cart.

Yes, the CoGA started with the enormous advantage of absolute credit worthiness, no one had ever lost money (as far as was known) on Church Credit. Now, many years into a war that is going badly, where the most tithing-worthy territories have rebelled, how long will the credit be accepted?
I think that depends on where the acceptors are and what they think the Church might do if they say no.

Yes, they are a ruling theocracy, who is going to say no? Problem is that people have to have something with which to buy (ref. Venezuela & Zimbabwe) and the providers want value for their product. This is a case of diminishing returns and as the credit reputation shrinks (inflation), one has to move to alternatives. This generally means increasing use of force in the communities, otherwise people move to massive hoarding and commerce drys up. That force deprives the battlefront of personal while the unrest within makes for small but increasing rebellions.

It is a finite solution set, the CoGA has to win and win soon. In order to win, and keep commerce moving it has to have some visible and real victories. The propaganda machine of the CoGA is losing to OWL's superior abilities and that is not helping the CoGA at all! In spite of all the tyrannies of the past and their fevered efforts at keeping the people down, people are smart and realistic. At some point they will say, if the penalty for not eating is death and the penalty for rebellion is death yet I can eat if I rebel, the answer is no mystery.

I concur. Issuing fiat currency at best gives Duchairn breathing room, and he'll know it. But he may see no alternative as his revenue picture worsens.
_______
Dennis
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by Louis R   » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:49 pm

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You're remembering a separate incident some 3 books earlier [maybe 4].

Duchairn did indeed sell off - or offer to, at least - Church properties in Charis & Chisolm. On the understanding that taking possession was the purchaser's problem. At the same time he put a good number of minor Church properties on the mainland on the block, at a much less remarkable discount since transfer to the new owner could be guaranteed. It was, IIRC, detailed in the same conversation with Magwair where the new arrangements in Harchong were outlined, but since i don't have searchable copies of the books i can't tell you exactly where.


DMcCunney wrote:After Charis defeated the combined fleets of Chisholm, Emerald, Corisande, Tarot and Dohlor, Hector of Corisande realized he'd need a new model navy to have any hope of fighting Charis, but didn't have the money in his Treasury to finance construction. His keeper of the purse suggested that Corisande and the Church had a common interest, and the Church might be expected to subsidize the cost. Given the blockade Charis could impose, the Church might not be able to supply actual specie, but letters of credit could be issued drawing against the Church, which would be accepted at face value or only slight discounting given the Church's solvency, and the Archbishopric of Corisande had funds enough to start the process while waiting for Zion to approve.

The Charisian Inner Circle were properly cynical. If it worked, it was worth every mark it would cost the Church. If it didn't, the letters of credit would be so much waste paper, and wouldn't cost the Church a tenth-mark because they would never be redeemed for actual precious metal.

It's possible I'm not remembering something, but I don't recall Duchairn doing something like this.


Dennis
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by DMcCunney   » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:55 pm

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Louis R wrote:You're remembering a separate incident some 3 books earlier [maybe 4].

Duchairn did indeed sell off - or offer to, at least - Church properties in Charis & Chisolm. On the understanding that taking possession was the purchaser's problem. At the same time he put a good number of minor Church properties on the mainland on the block, at a much less remarkable discount since transfer to the new owner could be guaranteed. It was, IIRC, detailed in the same conversation with Magwair where the new arrangements in Harchong were outlined, but since i don't have searchable copies of the books i can't tell you exactly where.

I do have and may Look Stuff Up later, but I'll take your word that the conversation occurred. Thanks for the memory jog.

So Duchairn did have that idea. Well, that's another way to raise money - liquidate assets to get cash. I suspect the Church has a fair amount of such assets it could turn into cash.
_______
Dennis
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:41 am

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DMcCunney wrote:
Louis R wrote:You're remembering a separate incident some 3 books earlier [maybe 4].

Duchairn did indeed sell off - or offer to, at least - Church properties in Charis & Chisolm. On the understanding that taking possession was the purchaser's problem. At the same time he put a good number of minor Church properties on the mainland on the block, at a much less remarkable discount since transfer to the new owner could be guaranteed. It was, IIRC, detailed in the same conversation with Magwair where the new arrangements in Harchong were outlined, but since i don't have searchable copies of the books i can't tell you exactly where.

I do have and may Look Stuff Up later, but I'll take your word that the conversation occurred. Thanks for the memory jog.

So Duchairn did have that idea. Well, that's another way to raise money - liquidate assets to get cash. I suspect the Church has a fair amount of such assets it could turn into cash.
_______
Dennis


Louis is correct, and it did bring in a nice little python lump of cash from the more . . . optimistic speculators. :D

Another thing that will become clear in the current book is that Mother Church has also imposed draconian wage and price controls that amount to a freeze at pre-jihad levels. He's also begun adulterating the currency to make it go farther, which is a much more significant step on Safehold than it was here on Earth. The Writ puts strict limits on fiat currency, though I haven't discussed them in the books. They don't quite dictate that all currency must be specie-based, but they come very close (the actual restrictions come under the fair measure clause), so reducing the gold content is actually the less . . . fraught way to increase the currency supply. Unfortunately, it's also a major religious no-no, and people have become aware it's happening anyway. Of course, Clyntahn has signed off on the debasement, which makes it technically "legal," but it's not increasing people's faith in the Temple's financial health one bit.

All of this is having certain predictable effects --- like driving hard currency into the black market --- and isn't doing a thing for the Temple Loyalists' faith that the jihad is going well. (Or at least better than those pestiferous broadsheets in Zion claim! :lol: )

In essence, Duchairn and the Treasury are now in a flat out sprint to the finish line. They have no choice but to spend however much it takes to equip the army currently in the field and being built, and they have now essentially pulled all the levers. As far as Duchairn and Maigwair are concerned, 898 is the make-or-break year. Either they defeat the Allies (or at least knock them back on their heels with heavy losses), or else it's over, because they simply can't continue to prop up the Church's finances. Short of a confiscatory economy where the Church controls all production and all distribution of all goods without monetary payment at all, they will be in collapse mode by sometime in mid to late-899.

Duchairn knows Clyntahn is perfectly willing to embrace exactly that solution, but he seriously questions the Inquisition's ability to enforce it, in no small part because of the beating Clyntahn's reputation as Grand Inquisitor has been taking. He is well aware that whether Clyntahn wants to admit it or not (even to himself) Reformist sentiment is climbing sharply even in the Temple Lands as the military reverses continue to mount and the truth about which side is actually the brutal, oppressive force of darkness begins to sink fully home.

Rayno is aware of this, too, BTW, although his response to that awareness is rather different from Duchairns.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert
Post by Annachie   » Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:23 am

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I wonder how many Charisian church propertis Charis bought on the sly?

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