Request For Information...potential SPOILER alert

Is there a current list somewhere with all the standing armies and navies, who's in command, and what their disposition is (at least as far as size, location, and general breakdown of assets (ie number of schooners, galleons, mortars/angle guns/howitzers, etc?) I've tried keeping it all straight, but I've been moving around a lot over the past year. My notes on this series, as well as the Honorverse for that matter, became casualties. I am getting lost in the sauce here...

An updated list on populations by nation on Safehold would be nice too, not just starting numbers, but number during the Jihad/Crusade/Holy War on Charis/whatever it is officially going to be called by Safeholdean historians.

This is where SPOILERS from the recent snippets may abound...

I'm getting confused on a number of points RFC has brought up between the last 1.5 books and these new snippets.
Primarily, what condition is the CoGA in. Yes, they've had setbacks in the field and on the waves, but they still control an un-godly population base. Granted, most of these are Harchongese who's general utility value is very much in question, but still. So I'll start by asking about finances.
What the hell is going on with the CoGA's Treasury? Last book, they were on life-support. Have I missed something or is that still the case? They were projected to be bankrupt within the year no matter what they did unless they were able to get back into the RoS...
Recent snippets and info dumps have practically said that Harchong is rapidly industrializing and Go4 efforts to industrialize the Border States was also better than expected, but these are military assets; not consumer. How are they still generating revenue? Dohlar, Desnair, and Silkiah have been cut off. S. Harchong is exposed as well as one or two other polities I'm missing on Howard (I think I have my continents right). RFC has also revealed that agriculture is more efficient and the MHoGatA can have as many as 3 Million men in its order of battle if Green Valley can't do anything about that. How would that not be a death blow to the already mostly arid, mountainous land. Where is the food for CoGA coming from and how are they paying for it?

Moving on to Dohlar. Somehow they're still alive. Kudos to them. But how much longer will it realistically be before they sue for peace? Especially once the EoC assumes control of the Silkiah Canal and its logistics problems virtually go away (at least as far as Claw Island is concerned). Charis can't afford to shift to toher targets because Dohlar is on the ropes, but they have to close that front soon in order to shift their forces to Harchong and apply pressure there. If for no other reason than to force the AoG's High Command/Go4 to re leave some of the pressure Green Valley's facing in the Border States.

I have more question, but I think this is a good enough start for now.

Well, basically their treasury worked in "to Shain-Wei all this, we have a TOTAL WAR to fight!"

I.e. they started to take situation - at least in Temple Lands - under the direct government control. Everyone worked to The Cause. The combination of propaganda (heretics on the mainland! Holy Zion in danger!), patriotism (after all, the population of the Temple Land clearly understood, that they are next on the Charisian's "to invade" list) and fear (Clyntahn&Co could provide this easily enough) could do real marvels.

For example: the Japanese were able to won Russian-Japanese w2ar being basically bankrupt. Germany fight till 1918, despite the economic were troubled since 1916. And the USSR was able to beat German armies and turn the tide simply by being unable to bankrupt: the Soviet of this time economy was based less on money stimulus, more on moral&ideological, combined with patriotic feelings of the populations.

Dilandu wrote:Well, basically their treasury worked in "to Shain-Wei all this, we have a TOTAL WAR to fight!"

...

For example: the Japanese were able to won Russian-Japanese w2ar being basically bankrupt. Germany fight till 1918, despite the economic were troubled since 1916. And the USSR was able to beat German armies and turn the tide simply by being unable to bankrupt: the Soviet of this time economy was based less on money stimulus, more on moral&ideological, combined with patriotic feelings of the populations.

I like those examples. Japan also had a leg up in that the US, Canada, and Britain helped the Japanese out financially. 38% of the Japanese war effort was paid by loans from one of these countries. the Russo-Japanese War also gave birth to the modern Japanese navy when they captured several capital ships over the course of the war. So, even they and the Russians had to finance it somehow over "God Wills It!"
Also, money was a relatively new concept in Japan as for centuries, they had a koku-system (barter system that basically turned rice into currency).
There was a time when the Soviets had money? I thouhgt vodka and cigarettes comprised their fiscal and monetary policies.

ChronicRder wrote:There was a time when the Soviets had money? I thouhgt vodka and cigarettes comprised their fiscal and monetary policies.

Being Russian and knowing what sacrifices the USSR had to do to obtain money for industrialization (there was pretty nasty period, when Western Europe demanded that all trade with Soviet Union was supposed to be conducted on the basics of either gold or grain) I found this particular joke... less than amusing.

ChronicRder wrote: the Russo-Japanese War also gave birth to the modern Japanese navy when they captured several capital ships over the course of the war.

Completely wrong.

The Japanese already have pretty modern fleet, build generally in 1894-1904. They took quite a lot of Russian ships - those which were captured in Port-Arthur, and those, who surrendered after Tsusima - but only a few of them were actually new and combat capable. Basically, only two of captured capital ships - battleships "Oryol" and "Retvisan" (the later was american-build) were actually modern. The "Poltava" wasn't modern, she was ordered in 1890, and was older than almost every Japanese battleships. "Peresvet" and "Pobeda" was considered unsucsessful even before the war: they were created as an attempt to build superheavy ocean raider, but lacked range, speed and their weaponry was too light. And "Imperator Nikolay" was old and completely worn-out - she was laid in 1886!

Basically, the Japanese decision to refit all those ships and put them in service was more ideological, than economical or military. They spend a lot of money to repair the captured warships, the majority of whom were outdated long before the war.

Really? I've studied Japan for several years and I'd always thought that the Russo-Japanese War gave Japan the modern and capital hulls it would need to go toe-to-toe with the Western Navies like the British, Germans, and US.
Always willing to do more research though. Any sources you can recommend other than wiki, Dilandu?

I'm still trying to figure out the CoGA finaces though. Unlike any power, religious or secular, in Earth's history, the CoGA is essentially the Holy See on steroids and realized all the power, prestige, wealth, and fanaticism that the Vatican never could. That said, it still controls the economy--outside of the EoC and RoS sphere of influence. They have to have currency that is worth something because their client and allied states back up their currency with Zion dollars (the name of the currency escapes me). If they can't find a way to make-good the money situation, they'll collapse. I dont care how many fanatics they have 3, 300, 3 million, 30 million, they'll only be as many corpses. This is what ultimately killed Lee late in the American Civil War. He had guns and munitions, lots of them compared to the number of men he had, but he lacked food for his army and they gradually dwindled either to desertion or died to either starvation/malnutrition or, the fortunate ones, on the battlefield.
If the CoGA puts all its resources into modern weapons and munitions, it leaves nothing for sustainment. The farms may be more productive than on Earth, but they aren't a priority for the Go4. That's the problem. Coupled with how could they afford that effort even if they made it one?

Sadly, the replies to this point haven't addressed the questions raised in the original post. I regret to say I don't have the answers you need, but I'm just as curious about them as you are, I think.

ChronicRder wrote:Really? I've studied Japan for several years and I'd always thought that the Russo-Japanese War gave Japan the modern and capital hulls it would need to go toe-to-toe with the Western Navies like the British, Germans, and US.
Always willing to do more research though. Any sources you can recommend other than wiki, Dilandu?

Sure:

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/ja ... eships.htm

Basically this is the online version of Convay's "All the World's Fighting Ships". If you like, I have actual Convay downloaded, but the data is solid.

The exact captured ships:

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_bb_iki.htm

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_bb_iwami.htm

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_bb_hizen.htm

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_bb_tango.htm

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_bb_suwo.htm

As you could see, those ships are generally outdated. Compare them with cotemporary Japanese (Britain-build) battleship. And the dreadnought age already started... so Japanese basically wasted money on restoration of old, worn-out XIX-century battleships, instead of building modern dreadnoughts.

In fact, if they wouldn't restore older russian battleships, they would have enough money to build "Aki" and "Satsuma" as dreadnoughts. They were forced to change the initial "all-big-gun" design to the less capable semi-dreadnought because they simply haven't got money for more heavy guns.

This is what ultimately killed Lee late in the American Civil War. He had guns and munitions, lots of them compared to the number of men he had, but he lacked food for his army and they gradually dwindled either to desertion or died to either starvation/malnutrition or, the fortunate ones, on the battlefield.

I really doubt that this is the right aproximation. Lee lacked food, uniforms & materials because they simply couldn't be provided by crumbling South industry. Even if Lee have all Clyntahn's Inquisitors on his side, they still wouldn't be able to change situation, simply because there were no more food, clothes, medicine to obtain.

The Church, on the other hands, still have tremendous industrial capabilities under control. And as long as they HAVE the physical ability to produce, they WOULD be able to produce food, materials and good for army.

Yes, they faced the phinancical crysis. So what? In their direct sphere of influence - in the Temple Lands - they could basically make peoples work for food, without any money involved at all. The combination of fear of Inquisition, religious propaganda and basic patriotism would allow them to boost war efforts even if there would be no gold coin left in Zion. If they would have no money to pay, they could go to the ration stamps. They could nationalize all food supplies in Temple Lands, and made distribution centralized, with all power of Inquisition to control the speculations.

Of course, EXTERNALLY the lack of funds would present significant problems. Especially considering that Deshnari are clearly NOT very eager to support Zion any more. But they have enough power to still control Harchong, with it's really large population.

XofDallas wrote:Sadly, the replies to this point haven't addressed the questions raised in the original post. I regret to say I don't have the answers you need, but I'm just as curious about them as you are, I think.

Rabbit holes abound on forums. What can I say?
But I'm still hoping someone will answer my original questions on here

If you remember, Zhaspar reluctantly agreed to a "modification" of the tithing/taxation structure in Harchong which should have greatly increased the Church's income from that nation.

Also, there's some mention about taking product in lieu of actual money.

Also, for all intents and purposes, the Church has set up the equivalent of the Nazi's labor camps, with the same kind of philosophy, namely, "it's ok to work them to death as long as it accomplishes our goals".

And, even if they haven't quite resorted to it yet, the Church *could* theoretically just confiscate whatever they felt they needed without paying for it. After all, most of the armies of the nations they still "control" are not at home, but in Siddamark. By the time they got back, the Church and the Inquisition could take anything they wanted, along with hostages to ensure obedience.

For that matter, in places like Harchong they could totally victimize the nobles, and the serfs would probably cheer them on, rather than hinder them.