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Hyper Torps? ...

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Re: Hyper Torps? ...
Post by Eagleeye   » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:03 pm

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pnakasone wrote:Is the hyper limit an absolute line or dos it fluctuate enough for someone to have to scan for it?


The hyperlimit is a sphere, and the radius of that sphere depends of the mass of the body who produces it. For stars with inhabited planets, (mostly G- and K-types) it is around 12-15 lightminutes, if memory serves. Giant planets produce hyperlimits, too - mostly in the range of 3 to 4 lightminutes.

So, if I understand it correctly (and because we have ample textev concerning "translations right on the hyperlimit") I would say, that the aformentioned radius is (for anything, coming out of hyper) the wall one really don't want to cross, but anyone wants to come as near as possible. In reverse mode - if you're inside the wall-influenced volume and want to go into hyper - you simply can't, but nothing else happens. Else the descriptions we got (for example) during Filaretas approach against Sphinx wouldn't make any sense.

So, in answer to your question (and if I understand it correctly) the hyperlimit is very similiar to a very thin (and for anything coming out of hyper: extremly hard) surface for any ship which try to cross it. It may have some volume, but not enough so to make any difference for any ship trying to cross into or out of hyper.
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Re: Hyper Torps? ...
Post by OrlandoNative   » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:23 pm

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drinksmuchcoffee wrote:Hyper drives are very large. The smallest ships with hyper drives seem to be courier vessels which are around 10k tons. That is about a hundred times larger than a large MDM.
It isn't at all clear from the textev whether you could miniaturize a hyper drive very much.

There is also a question of how you would use such a weapon tactically. Most engagements are fought within the hyper limit. As you would guess from the name, you can't use a hyper drive inside the hyper limit. Even if you could or would fight outside the hyper limit, you have a hellacious target acquisition problem and also a quite substantial guidance problem.

One thing I don't think you're taking into consideration is that hyper drives are generally associated with *ships*, not anything else. Ships are *manned*, and require all the things living organisms do - namely life support, crew space, storage space for food, air, and supplies, inertial compensators to keep the crew from getting squashed, etc. That all adds to the size and mass of the final vessel. Theoretically, if one had designed just a drone controlled by computers while in hyper and maybe by remote control in n-space, you could probably make it *much* smaller.

That said, we don't have any real idea of the minimum size of a hyperconverter. I'm not sure I've even ever noticed in the text any physical size comparisons between hyperconverters on small vs large vessels.

One could reasonably expect that the larger the vessel, the larger the necessary field, and thus the larger and more "durable" the converter, but we don't have any actual conformation of this.

However, if we postulate that the required field size *does* influence the physical size of the converter, a converter for something the size of a missle would likely be much smaller than that of even a courier.

It would seem that if they could shrink a fusion reactor to a size that could be fitted into a missle, doing so to a hyperconverter shouldn't be all that more difficult. Fusion reactors require ultra high intensity magnetic fields to keep the star-temperature plasma away from the walls of the reaction chamber, since no known element or alloy can withstand the heat without either melting or vaporizing. And an incredible amount of power just to create the fields. While it's never been, to my knowledge, explicitly explained, I doubt the missle's power systems could "spin up" by themselves. Missle pods, and, of course, ships, probably supply the "seed" energy necessary to each missle to create the necessary magnetic bottles prior to the initiation of the fusion reactions within them and subsequent onboard energy generation that can then "take over" supplying the power for the necessary containment.

Back in my college years, there was an ongoing project at my university - the Laser Fusion Feasibility Project. While I wasn't personally involved, most of the theoretical physicists, engineers, and researchers tended to spend a lot of time (and use a lot of resources) at the campus computing center where I worked part time. Like all good researchers, they bounced problems off anyone they tended to come into regular contact with, since no one has a monopoly on ideas, and sometimes someone more distant from the problem might spot something someone more involved didn't see. They basically had 2 major problems - generating consistent power output, and, somewhat related, generating more power OUTPUT than the required INPUT for the containment fields. I don't recall them actually solving either of them. While I was there, or, for that matter, afterwards. Which is probably why we don't see fusion reactors in operation today replacing the much maligned fission ones. LOL.

But the point to all this is that it is likely to be far more difficult to shrink a fusion reactor to the size to fit in a missile than something that just has circuits to generate and control a field, with no stellar temperatures involved.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Hyper Torps? ...
Post by kzt   » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:25 pm

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OrlandoNative wrote:But the point to all this is that it is likely to be far more difficult to shrink a fusion reactor to the size to fit in a missile than something that just has circuits to generate and control a field, with no stellar temperatures involved.

David cheats, using absurdly powerful gravitic control. But that is one of basic assumptions of the Honorverse.
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Re: Hyper Torps? ...
Post by OrlandoNative   » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:44 pm

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pnakasone wrote:Is the hyper limit an absolute line or dos it fluctuate enough for someone to have to scan for it?

The hyper limit is determined by gravitational influences from bodies in n-space; namely stars and planets. It's most likely a *calculated* figure that corresponds to an actual boundary, but I doubt anyone actually tries doing translations to determine just how accurate the calculated boundary *is*. While it's no doubt *roughly* spherical, it's probably not a perfect sphere. The stellar mass has the most influence, but planetary masses probably also distort the boundary somewhat - it's probably a bit more "bulgy" in the plane of the ecliptic than, for example north or south of it.

That's for a "normal", single star system. The Mantecore system has more than one star, so the boundary would tend to move in relation to n-space based on the position of each stellar body. That's why they have the "resonance zone". I suspect that while at some locations ships could translate closer in or further out than just a spherical shape would suggest, most civilian vessels which don't go through the wormhole terminus probably translate at the farthest distance, just to be safe.

I can't remember if it was ever noted as to whether the hyper limit actually *prevented* translation within it, or whether it was just a matter of safety, ie, a hyper field wouldn't form, or the "gravitational tidal stresses" involved in doing a translation were just so strong that it would tear a ship apart if it tried to translate within the limit. There's no mention of ships in hyper *avoiding* stellar systems while remaining in hyper; which would be the logical derivative if hyper fields couldn't be formed or maintained within the limit.

We do know that, until the alignment developed the "streak drive", that a safe, non-disruptive translation into the iota hyper band wasn't possible. Note that in HOFQ it's noted that the vessel sent to notify Manticore of Peep involvement in Yeltsin "bounced off the iota wall". Perhaps the hyper limit imposes a similar - though obviously not the same since the streak drive doesn't allow translations within the limit - constraint on translations between n-space and the alpha wall.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Hyper Torps? ...
Post by OrlandoNative   » Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:00 pm

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kzt wrote:David cheats, using absurdly powerful gravitic control. But that is one of basic assumptions of the Honorverse.

I'm pretty sure that the text to date shows *ships* as using magnetic containment for their fusion reactors. If they could use gravitics instead, I'm sure they would. Since it's fairly easy to generate macro-sized gravity fields (which they do for the impeller drive) it would likely scale UP more easily than *down*.

I don't remember any text reference that implied or stated that the micro fusion reactors used gravity for containment. Indeed, if they did, they - and the units they powered - would be much easier for an enemy to locate. You can shield electromagnetic energy, but you can't disguise gravity. At least not intense gravity. Manty stealth systems could "hide" the impeller drive grav stresses outside of 6 light-seconds. The intensity required for grav containment of a fusion reaction would probably be about the intensity of a star's gravitational field. I doubt they could stealth a star to a point within the boundaries of a stellar system. That's why theoretically ghost rider platforms could be located from using their gravity generators for the FTL communication capability. Assuming, of course, that one could build a uni-directional grav detector, which so far hasn't happened. Indeed, if they used grav containment for power, it shouldn't have taken them as long as it did to "convert" Ghost Rider to FTL communication capabilities. Remember, the reason given was that it took a long time to create miniaturized *GRAV* generators, not micro fusion plants, since the Ghost Rider platforms had those from the beginning. Also, the Ghost Riders often penetrate far closer than 6 light seconds; so they probably don't have anything onboard that stealth would have trouble hiding.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Hyper Torps? ...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:04 am

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OrlandoNative wrote:
kzt wrote:David cheats, using absurdly powerful gravitic control. But that is one of basic assumptions of the Honorverse.

I'm pretty sure that the text to date shows *ships* as using magnetic containment for their fusion reactors. If they could use gravitics instead, I'm sure they would. Since it's fairly easy to generate macro-sized gravity fields (which they do for the impeller drive) it would likely scale UP more easily than *down*.

I don't remember any text reference that implied or stated that the micro fusion reactors used gravity for containment.
I believe it's House of Steel that most explicitly talks about the GRAVMAK reactors that starship's use; here's a reluctant quote: "pre-Alliance Grayson fusion plants were not gravitically/electromagnetically compressed (as are GRAVMAKs). They operated purely on electromagnetic principles and were enormous when compared to a modern GRAVMAK of similar output."

But before we got the formal name the books contrasted the shipboard gravity based fusion with the far lower output laser ignition fusion used in pinnaces and shuttles. I want to say it might have been in the text around the State Sec shuttles Honor's POWs stole from Tepes - but I don't have that reference handy.


I do agree that I can't recall technical details if the micro fusion plants used in ghost rider being given; whether or not they incorporate grav compression tech...
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Re: Hyper Torps? ...
Post by SCC   » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:06 am

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Starships absolutely use gravity to make their fusion plants work, it's a talking point in AoV (I think), the commissioner has some problems understanding all the talk about Manty Super LACs being impossible because of power plants. This talk, by the way, means that Manty missiles use laser-fused fusion.

As for hyper generators, there seems to be an absolute minimum size, and that's the size used is dispatch boats, and they don't get bigger very fast, because destroyers use generators of the same size, despite being bigger.
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