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The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels

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Re: The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels
Post by McGuiness   » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:42 pm

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OrlandoNative wrote:Also, I suspect the manufacturing modules required templates and programming. *If* a PICA template existed in any of the computers originally on Safehold, it would have been for a "limited duration" PICA, since those were the only ones allowed by Federation law. Someone would have needed to modify the programming, and the person who had that kind of expertise was on the opposing side.

So it would appear the possibility of a basically unlimited duration PICA with one of the "evil" archangel's personalities is, in essence, vanishingly small.
You're forgetting that there were over a million "emancipated electronic personalities" who resided in PICAs in the Terran Federation, and they were were considered full citizens. It was a grey area, but with the final war in full swing, the TF didn't have time to worry about it.

From HFQ: "Under Federation law, it had been legal to emancipate electronic personalities. Indeed, quite a few of them—only a tiny number, perhaps, compared to the size of the Federation’s total population, but almost a million overall—had been housed in PICAs free of the hardwired time limit of Nimue’s PICA. The ten-day limit in her case had been required because PICAs like hers weren’t independent entities. They were extensions of an existing biological intelligence, and the limit was intended to do two things: first, prevent the cybernetic version of that intelligence from “going rogue,” and, second, to establish legal responsibility for any of the PICA’s actions.
The PICAs built for emancipated personalities lacked that limitation. Instead, they were hardwired to prevent any other personality from ever being loaded to them in the first place, and the question of whether those copies of flesh-and-blood humans were actually human—like the question of whether or not they had “souls”—had remained hotly debated. There’d been so few of them, and the ability to create last-generation PICAs had been so comparatively recent—and the threat of the Gbaba had provided such an enormous distraction from such concerns—that any sort of definitive philosophical consensus had been impossible to achieve. Merlin Athrawes found it rather bitterly ironic that Nimue Alban had never thought too much about either of those questions. Or perhaps she had when she volunteered to die so that a PICA with her memories could awaken here on Safehold. If she had, however, neither he nor Nimue Chwaeriau would ever know a thing about it.Legally, however, the Federation had concluded that—like the virtual personalities created for its military R&D—the electronic people living in those PICAs had the same legal rights as any biological entity. Many of them, in fact, had been members of the military, and a handful had even served as elected members of the Federation Assembly."


So clearly TF law did allow a person to live permanently in his/her PICA. (Which I'd guess would be a huge blessing for the severely handicapped, for example. I'd certainly love to have one!)

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels
Post by DMcCunney   » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:41 pm

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jgnfld wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:...
I did have the random though that it I wanted to keep Hamilcar around, but wanted to make it exceptionally unlikely to be detected, I might see if I could stash it on Langhorne and cover it over. It would be close at hand and easy enough to uncover by anyone that could get to it in the first place.

Just park it on the back side. No need for burial. Close at hand, no possibility of being discovered so long as the induced social matrix holds.

The discovery I'd be concerned about if I did that wouldn't be by people on Safehold. I'd be concerned about possible discovery by things like automated Gbaba probes sweeping systems for traces of technology.

Even if Hamilcar is powered down and just drifting in orbit, there is no way it can be anything but an artifact of technology if something detects it and takes a closer look.
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Re: The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels
Post by jgnfld   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:41 am

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DMcCunney wrote:
jgnfld wrote:...
Just park it on the back side. No need for burial. Close at hand, no possibility of being discovered so long as the induced social matrix holds.

The discovery I'd be concerned about if I did that wouldn't be by people on Safehold. I'd be concerned about possible discovery by things like automated Gbaba probes sweeping systems for traces of technology.

Even if Hamilcar is powered down and just drifting in orbit, there is no way it can be anything but an artifact of technology if something detects it and takes a closer look.
_______
Dennis

Any probe close enough to see a ship on a moon is going to be able to see cities on a planet.
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Re: The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels
Post by evilauthor   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:45 am

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My first thought when it comes to hiding starships is to submerge them under Safehold's seas. Hidden from sight and no one without sonar would ever find them. And even WITH sonar would still be unlikely to find them unless either they knew where to look or that there's mass colonization of the sea floor, either of which would mean that Safehold had long since broken out of Langhorne's mold.

But then I realized that I didn't know if Federation starships were amphibious. Merlin's recon skimmer is, but it's a RECON skimmer. It's designed to hide and go sneaking around places, and being submersible would only add to the number of places it could go and hide. That would not necessarily apply to full fledged starships, or even the new multi-person transport shuttles.
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Re: The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels
Post by Randomiser   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:56 am

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McGuiness wrote:You're forgetting that there were over a million "emancipated electronic personalities" who resided in PICAs in the Terran Federation, and they were were considered full citizens. It was a grey area, but with the final war in full swing, the TF didn't have time to worry about it.

<snip long HFQ quote>

So clearly TF law did allow a person to live permanently in his/her PICA. (Which I'd guess would be a huge blessing for the severely handicapped, for example. I'd certainly love to have one!)



Yes, I'd forgotten those too. I don't think it's about allowing someone to live permanently in their PICA, though. (Well depending how you resolve those identity questions which disturb Merlin from time to time) It's about someone creating a second version of themselves in the PICA which then becomes, legally as well as practically another person. The backstory hasn't really emphasised what happened with the flesh-and-blood person while a recreational PICA was active. Was she active and doing other things and got a download of the experience of that holiday in the Andes when it was done, so she had 2 sets of memories for that week? Was she unconscious and looked after somewhere and got the download at the end so she had one stream of consciousness in the different bodies? Was she getting a live stream from the holiday while she could take it as she curled up on the sofa at home? I don't get the impression that personality was wiped from the flesh and blood body while the PICA was active and then rewritten at the end of the trip. (Otherwise there's Zombie movie in there somewhere!) But we just don't know AFAIR.

In a post RFC unequivocally stated that there are no other PICA's on Safehold. Which is partly why the conspiracy theorists are so keen to still have Hamilcar around somewhere. As far as I know, no one has yet suggested there might be one or four somewhere among the OBS satellites, which no one has been able to have a really good look at yet, after all ... :twisted:
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Re: The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels
Post by Joat42   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:16 am

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Randomiser wrote:
McGuiness wrote:You're forgetting that there were over a million "emancipated electronic personalities" who resided in PICAs in the Terran Federation, and they were were considered full citizens. It was a grey area, but with the final war in full swing, the TF didn't have time to worry about it.

<snip long HFQ quote>

So clearly TF law did allow a person to live permanently in his/her PICA. (Which I'd guess would be a huge blessing for the severely handicapped, for example. I'd certainly love to have one!)



Yes, I'd forgotten those too. I don't think it's about allowing someone to live permanently in their PICA, though. (Well depending how you resolve those identity questions which disturb Merlin from time to time) It's about someone creating a second version of themselves in the PICA which then becomes, legally as well as practically another person. The backstory hasn't really emphasised what happened with the flesh-and-blood person while a recreational PICA was active. Was she active and doing other things and got a download of the experience of that holiday in the Andes when it was done, so she had 2 sets of memories for that week? Was she unconscious and looked after somewhere and got the download at the end so she had one stream of consciousness in the different bodies? Was she getting a live stream from the holiday while she could take it as she curled up on the sofa at home? I don't get the impression that personality was wiped from the flesh and blood body while the PICA was active and then rewritten at the end of the trip. (Otherwise there's Zombie movie in there somewhere!) But we just don't know AFAIR.

I thought the memories from the PICA was re-integrated into the real person afterwards, ie. the person get 2 sets of memories for the same period. That was kind of the whole point, you could use the PICA to do insane stuff and then have the memories transferred back.

Randomiser wrote:In a post RFC unequivocally stated that there are no other PICA's on Safehold. Which is partly why the conspiracy theorists are so keen to still have Hamilcar around somewhere. As far as I know, no one has yet suggested there might be one or four somewhere among the OBS satellites, which no one has been able to have a really good look at yet, after all ... :twisted:

But there may be a bunch of personality-recordings stored somewhere. One of the suggestions on the out of order snippet was that Alexandria had a storage of many thousands of personality recordings which got obliterated in the first strike.

---
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Re: The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels
Post by DMcCunney   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:50 pm

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jgnfld wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:...
The discovery I'd be concerned about if I did that wouldn't be by people on Safehold. I'd be concerned about possible discovery by things like automated Gbaba probes sweeping systems for traces of technology.

Even if Hamilcar is powered down and just drifting in orbit, there is no way it can be anything but an artifact of technology if something detects it and takes a closer look.

Any probe close enough to see a ship on a moon is going to be able to see cities on a planet.

Sure, which is why I talked about burying it.

I'm assuming said automated probe is looking for technological traces, which means electromagnetic activity. If it's poking around in local space, it might detect a powered down vessel in orbit, and there is no way that can be anything but technology.

But if you have a preindustrial society living on the planet (IE, not doing things that generate detectable electromagnetic activity), there may be cities, but the probe may not even see them. What sort of sensors will it have? What will it be looking for? A city is easy enough to see if you know what one is, and your means of looking is the equivalent of eyes using the visual spectrum.

If what you are looking for is things like radio and TV broadcasts, hypercom transmissions and the like, visual sensors may not even be present. You can't see cities if you don't have eyes.
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Dennis
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Re: The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels
Post by Joat42   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:54 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:...
The discovery I'd be concerned about if I did that wouldn't be by people on Safehold. I'd be concerned about possible discovery by things like automated Gbaba probes sweeping systems for traces of technology.

Even if Hamilcar is powered down and just drifting in orbit, there is no way it can be anything but an artifact of technology if something detects it and takes a closer look.
jgnfld wrote:Any probe close enough to see a ship on a moon is going to be able to see cities on a planet.

Sure, which is why I talked about burying it.

I'm assuming said automated probe is looking for technological traces, which means electromagnetic activity. If it's poking around in local space, it might detect a powered down vessel in orbit, and there is no way that can be anything but technology.

But if you have a preindustrial society living on the planet (IE, not doing things that generate detectable electromagnetic activity), there may be cities, but the probe may not even see them. What sort of sensors will it have? What will it be looking for? A city is easy enough to see if you know what one is, and your means of looking is the equivalent of eyes using the visual spectrum.

If what you are looking for is things like radio and TV broadcasts, hypercom transmissions and the like, visual sensors may not even be present. You can't see cities if you don't have eyes.
_______
Dennis

The easiest way to detect a civilization on a planet is just to analyze the visual spectrum from the reflected light which can be done light-years away. Some things shouldn't normally be present in an atmosphere.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


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Re: The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels
Post by evilauthor   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:08 pm

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Joat42 wrote:If what you are looking for is things like radio and TV broadcasts, hypercom transmissions and the like, visual sensors may not even be present. You can't see cities if you don't have eyes.


You sure. A planet might just have odd biochemistry.

But really, if you're going to do that, the thing you're going to most be looking for is free oxygen. There's no way to have that in an atmosphere unless it's constantly being replenished, either by natural life or technology. In either case, you'd want to take a closer look at such planets if only to be sure someone hasn't moved in.
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Re: The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels
Post by Joat42   » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:25 pm

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evilauthor wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:If what you are looking for is things like radio and TV broadcasts, hypercom transmissions and the like, visual sensors may not even be present. You can't see cities if you don't have eyes.
Joat42 wrote:The easiest way to detect a civilization on a planet is just to analyze the visual spectrum from the reflected light which can be done light-years away. Some things shouldn't normally be present in an atmosphere.[/qoute]
You sure. A planet might just have odd biochemistry.

But really, if you're going to do that, the thing you're going to most be looking for is free oxygen. There's no way to have that in an atmosphere unless it's constantly being replenished, either by natural life or technology. In either case, you'd want to take a closer look at such planets if only to be sure someone hasn't moved in.

So, free oxygen - may be worth a closer look; hydrocarbons, complex chemicals etc - this is really interesting.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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