Another out of sequence snippet

In David Webers book "OLD SOLDIERS" pg 326 paperback, it reads "chemical, but vastly more powerful than anything pre-space humanity had ever dreamed of". This story is set in the Boloverse, simular storyline and tech. I don't think a 2000 lb bomb is needed with the tech available in both universes. By the way a good read during the wait.

Dilandu wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:(Minimal textev gives it a point defense capability to protect itself, and a space to surface capability against ground targets, but that's it, and tossing rocks isn't very effective against something else that has gotten to orbital height. Merlin's recon skimmer could arguably get there, but doesn't mount any weapons powerful enough to threaten the OBS from beyond point defense range.)

The Rakurai array clearly wasn't programmed to analyse the situation by themselves. They didn't react even when the SNARC tried to probe them with active sensors - they only destroyed the SNARC, but no additional reaction (like a call to the Temple "unauthorised SNARC flight detected/disposed, take a note") followed.

Agreed.

One question I don't really think has been answered is what sort of autonomy the OBS has. The impression we've gotten is that when the Rakurai strike took out the Alexandria Enclave and converted it to Armageddon Reef, there was a human controller directing the strike and determining the location and pattern.

Automated point defense to zap something that got too close is one thing. An automated strike against something it detected on the ground is another matter. That strikes me as the sort of thing it would be programmed to phone home about instead of acting on its own.

One question I had when Merlin was conducting his test on the barren islands out in the Great Western Ocean to see what it might do if it detected steam power was what might have happened if it did detect something. Would it phone home to the Temple to say it had done so? What would answer the call? It if was something like an AI stashed under the Temple, how would that alert the humans in the Temple of what the OBS had done and why? The fact that Merlin's test continued for a while with no reaction indicated the OBS either didn't notice, or what it detected was below the level it was instructed to take action on.

Textev so far is that the Vicars living in the Temple simply accept the things it provides as gifts of the Archangels. Things Just Work, and they neither know nor care how that is managed. There are likely various interfaces to the Temple systems in the Temple, but it's not clear the Vicarate would know what they were if they saw them, and they probably aren't where the residents would ordinarily go.
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Dennis

I think one reason Nimue reacted so strongly in that case as opposed to Merlin is that as a male, Merlin hasn't experienced the gender discrimination that Nimue has, and had not experienced as an officer in the TFN.[/quote]

Ehuummm.... dude, Merlin was Nimue.

DMcCunney wrote:One question I don't really think has been answered is what sort of autonomy the OBS has. The impression we've gotten is that when the Rakurai strike took out the Alexandria Enclave and converted it to Armageddon Reef, there was a human controller directing the strike and determining the location and pattern.

I got the impression that the first Rakurai was a totally manual affair, it was much later they constructed many more to cover the whole of Safehold that they where automated.

DMcCunney wrote:Automated point defense to zap something that got too close is one thing. An automated strike against something it detected on the ground is another matter. That strikes me as the sort of thing it would be programmed to phone home about instead of acting on its own.

It's possible it was like that from the beginning, but when the angels went away they most likely just switched it over to automatic operation with a set of parameters for triggering.

DMcCunney wrote:One question I had when Merlin was conducting his test on the barren islands out in the Great Western Ocean to see what it might do if it detected steam power was what might have happened if it did detect something. Would it phone home to the Temple to say it had done so? What would answer the call? It if was something like an AI stashed under the Temple, how would that alert the humans in the Temple of what the OBS had done and why? The fact that Merlin's test continued for a while with no reaction indicated the OBS either didn't notice, or what it detected was below the level it was instructed to take action on.

As it stands, there is no need for human intervention from anyone in the temple. There is no need to inform them in any way either, it's much better from the standpoint of the plan to have them find out from witnesses that a strike has happened. Fear of god and all that jazz.

DMcCunney wrote:Textev so far is that the Vicars living in the Temple simply accept the things it provides as gifts of the Archangels. Things Just Work, and they neither know nor care how that is managed. There are likely various interfaces to the Temple systems in the Temple, but it's not clear the Vicarate would know what they were if they saw them, and they probably aren't where the residents would ordinarily go.
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Dennis

Wasn't there something about a rumor among the vicars that said the Inquisition had a "divine tool" which they could use to listen in to anyone inside the temple?

Anyway, from the archangels standpoint it would be bad to leave working interfaces which can be accessed easily since they couldn't be sure they got everyone during the war. Just imagine what a fifth-column priest could do if he could access a working interface and hack it.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Randomiser wrote:Hm. Is it possible, that Rakurai array and the Temple may be controlled by different sub-factions of Archangels, who did not trust each other very much?

But then you have to explain the use if the Rakurai to destroy the abbey of St. Kohdy.

Easy enough. Various of the lesser Angels were still present. One of them would have had access to the controls for the OBS array and directed the strike.

By the time the War Against the Fallen ended, Chihiro and Schueler seem to have been the last Archangels still in residence. (We know Commodore Pie killed Langhorne and Bedard when he nuked Langhorne's HQ, and the Shan Wei and Proctor had been killed by the Rakurai strike. We have no idea what became of folks like Hastings, Pasquale, Sondheim or Truscott, but they may have departed earlier because there was no need for their continued presence. David mentioned at a con that we would learn what became of the Archangels at some point.)

Given what the remaining Angels were doing, it seems likely they were part of Chihiro's faction, and would have done something like destroy like the Sister's of St. Kohdy's abbey. Kohdy appears to have been killed because he had become a threat to Chihiro, and went to see Schueler in the first place because his faith was shaken and he had questions Chihiro wouldn't have wanted answered.

(I've wondered a bit if there were things Chihiro was concealing from Schueler which Kohdy's questions might have uncovered. I suspect Kohdy never actually got to see Schueler.)
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Dennis

Rob the Fiend wrote:I think one reason Nimue reacted so strongly in that case as opposed to Merlin is that as a male, Merlin hasn't experienced the gender discrimination that Nimue has, and had not experienced as an officer in the TFN.

Ehuummm.... dude, Merlin was Nimue.[/quote]
Yes, but as Nimue Alban, she was in the TFN, which is presumed to be free of the gender discrimination, and has always been treated as a male on Safehold as Merlin. Nimue Cha* (I can't be bothered to look up the spelling of the newest PICA's name) she has experienced it, and, based on what happened to Shelton, is seriously pissed off by it.

Joat42 wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:One question I don't really think has been answered is what sort of autonomy the OBS has. The impression we've gotten is that when the Rakurai strike took out the Alexandria Enclave and converted it to Armageddon Reef, there was a human controller directing the strike and determining the location and pattern.

I got the impression that the first Rakurai was a totally manual affair, it was much later they constructed many more to cover the whole of Safehold that they where automated.

Yes to the first, but I'm not sure about the second.

David mentioned elsewhere the OBS was manufactured on Hamilcar in secret by Angels loyal to Chihiro, and deployed hours before it was actually used, to prevent Commodore Pei from being able to do anything about it. (With his warships already discarded, it's not clear what he could have done in any case.)

I suspect the full array was deployed at that time, and it's likely Chihiro thought the Alexandria Enclave might not be the only target it might get used on.

DMcCunney wrote:Automated point defense to zap something that got too close is one thing. An automated strike against something it detected on the ground is another matter. That strikes me as the sort of thing it would be programmed to phone home about instead of acting on its own.

It's possible it was like that from the beginning, but when the angels went away they most likely just switched it over to automatic operation with a set of parameters for triggering.

You may well be right. I assume there is still a ground based controller (and the device under the Temple revealed to Father Paityr by the vision of Schueler might be it), but with the angels gone, they might have decided that providing control to the locals, leaders of Mother Church or not, was a bad idea,

DMcCunney wrote:One question I had when Merlin was conducting his test on the barren islands out in the Great Western Ocean to see what it might do if it detected steam power was what might have happened if it did detect something. Would it phone home to the Temple to say it had done so? What would answer the call? It if was something like an AI stashed under the Temple, how would that alert the humans in the Temple of what the OBS had done and why? The fact that Merlin's test continued for a while with no reaction indicated the OBS either didn't notice, or what it detected was below the level it was instructed to take action on.

As it stands, there is no need for human intervention from anyone in the temple. There is no need to inform them in any way either, it's much better from the standpoint of the plan to have them find out from witnesses that a strike has happened. Fear of god and all that jazz.

Good point. And that was likely part of Merlin's thinking in picking the location for his test. If the OBS was totally automated and didn't phone home, the location was remote enough no one was likely to see the strike if it did toss rocks.

DMcCunney wrote:Textev so far is that the Vicars living in the Temple simply accept the things it provides as gifts of the Archangels. Things Just Work, and they neither know nor care how that is managed. There are likely various interfaces to the Temple systems in the Temple, but it's not clear the Vicarate would know what they were if they saw them, and they probably aren't where the residents would ordinarily go.

Wasn't there something about a rumor among the vicars that said the Inquisition had a "divine tool" which they could use to listen in to anyone inside the temple?

There were suggestions of rumors to that effect. Whether they are true is another matter. I can certainly see the Inquisition encouraging the notion, and even planting the rumor to begin with.

Anyway, from the archangels standpoint it would be bad to leave working interfaces which can be accessed easily since they couldn't be sure they got everyone during the war. Just imagine what a fifth-column priest could do if he could access a working interface and hack it.

A working interface easily accessible would be a bad idea in any case, simply because of what might occur after all the angels were gone. The last thing you want is an ignorant colonist who has been carefully prevented from learning anything about technology to find it. Disaster could occur by accident.
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Dennis

McGuiness wrote:Since the demon Murphai (not the seijin by the same name!) always seems to rear his head, the snipers had better carry cyanide capsules and be able to get to them quicker than some yet to be named woman we've heard of...)

Nah, forget the cyanide. Suicide bomb vests with deadman triggers. (Yes, you can build them with chemical triggers, you don't need electricity.) When the guards try to stop them from suiciding (thinking it's poison) it takes the guards out also--and a bomb is a better death than cyanide.

Weird Harold wrote:

Dilandu wrote:Well, but the bomb is just a bomb. No electronic of any kind. Zero emission. To detect it, the Temple would be forced to go active and start active search - and it was clearly stated that the Temple didn't do that. Or Merlion would detect such scanners long ago.

The Temple would not need active sensors to detect "one of Langhorne’s own Rakurai" because nothing permissible under the proscriptions should create sonic booms or supersonic fireballs. It might not detect it soon enough to intercept it, but it ought to wake up and start watching things more closely.

Nothing permissible to people but meteors exist. If it actually comes from deep space the system has no reason to think it's anything but natural. It's possible it would be engaged anyway as a hazard but even if it's destroyed the system will not realize it's forbidden tech.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:The Temple would not need active sensors to detect "one of Langhorne’s own Rakurai" because nothing permissible under the proscriptions should create sonic booms or supersonic fireballs. It might not detect it soon enough to intercept it, but it ought to wake up and start watching things more closely.

Nothing permissible to people but meteors exist. If it actually comes from deep space the system has no reason to think it's anything but natural. It's possible it would be engaged anyway as a hazard but even if it's destroyed the system will not realize it's forbidden tech.

The question is whether the Temple mounts active defenses.

My guess is it doesn't. What would it need to defend against? The locals won't have anything that can threaten it. The whole point to the OBS is to prevent the locals from developing that sort of tech. Meteors are possible but highly unlikely.

And while the OBS mounts point defense to keep anything from bothering it, I very much doubt it has weaponry that can zap zap something dropped from orbit if it does detect it.
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Dennis