ATST Snippet #1

PeterZ wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:Safeholdian morality does seem to be absolutist.

But on a deeper level, even today, how many believers actually read the scriptures that define what their theology believes? Offhand, I'd say "Fairly few". What they think they know about what the scripture says and what is required of them in consequence is what they get from the priest/minister/rabbi/imam/what-have-you when they attend religious services, and priests have been known to quote selectively to get the text to support a moral view or course of action they are pushing.

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Undoubtedly, you are correct. That does not take away from the need of the CoC to assert a much more direct relationships between God and Man. Absent that direct relationship, the CoGA or its successor will simply rise anew working to strangle any thoughts that are different from its accepted doctrines.

By emphasizing the God's requirement for personal responsibility in how one lives, the ability for a church or any church to dictate morality wanes. That ability wanes because there can be as many churches as there are individual children of God deciding for themselves where their responsibility directs them...correctly or incorrectly.

So, the morality is absolute, but the understanding of how that absolute morality is to be applied is between God and the individual. I believe that is how the Writ is .... written.

I concur. And the CoC has certainly been trying to assert a much more direct relationship between God and Man. Archbishop Michael has been explicit about that being the core of the difference between the Church of Charis and the Church of God Awaiting from the beginning, and he has made that difference clear in almost every sermon he has preached, particularly in his pastoral visits to new provinces of the Empire, where he makes clear to the flock just what the CoC believes, how it differs from what the CoGA believes, and what it expects from them. He tells them "You must listen for God's voice in your heart, and decide for yourself what you believe and what God wants from you. The role of the Church is to help you to hear God, and not to try to tell you what He says."

Zhaspar Clyntahn represents the opposite belief. I mentioned previously a conversation he had with Willem Rayno where he described his motives. The Writ says God gave man free will. But Clyntahn is convinced man is imperfect and steeped in sin. Given a choice, men will invariably make the wrong ones that will lead them to Shan Wei and damnation. The only way for the Church to perform its mission to safeguard men's souls is to not permit choice. Men may say only what the Church permits them to say, think only wat the Church allows them to think, do only what the Church says they may do, and believe only what the Church tells them to believe.

And of course, Zhaspar Clyntahn is the one qualified to know what God wants and decide what the Church should permit.

Clyntahn cannot permit what the Church of Charis wants. It is utterly opposed to his view of reality. So he will bend every sinew to prevent it in areas the CoGA still controls. Reformist sentiment is steadily growing, but the Empire of Charis must remove the roadblock of the Inquisition before those seeds can take root and flower.

(As an aside, I look forward to Archbishop Dahnyld Fardhym of Siddarmark getting a chance to formally welcome Archbishop Michael to Siddar Cathedral. And after the service, he and Michael can repair to his palace and discuss their doctrinal differences over some good Chisholmian whiskey, or perhaps a few steins of good Siddarmark beer. When men of good will sit down together, they can generally find common ground. )

The underlying question of free will and what it entails has been an issue in Christianity and elsewhere for as long as organized religions have existed. No surprise it should play out on Safehold, and I don't expect different end results there.
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Dennis

Hi Dennis,

We had it from Rock Point in the inner circle discussion that the Cities couldn't get there faster than their coal collier galleons, or a month behind the 2 Rottweilers sent, which ought to be arriving soon.

While the textev states even though its 500 miles farther via Cherayth, the KH VII's would need only 24 days to reach Claw Island, and since the fire delayed thing only a couple of month's, ie from July, they could turn up at Claw Island in late October or November, though I'd prefer more testing time when so much aboard is brand new.

So its possible they may strike before winter shuts everything down, preventing any reaction from the Go4 and the southern MH until spring, which enables the Dohlarans to solidify their position, with results some have suggested above.

At the same time several of the original combined steam and sail type ships ought to also be under construction and even completed by now, given their better economy and security [they can run away from the privateers] for the next generation merchant ships, while their conservative sails reassure their owners and investors.

Since Charis can now afford building both, building 3-4 of each of the following to demonstrate their advantages in moving troops. horses, food, munitions and coal ought to encourage more investors and more construction.

Of course, steam tugs for Siddarmark's canals and rivers should already be busy there to accelerate internal supply and redeployment, besides generating an economic boom with faster transport to uplift the republic's population.

Hopefully we'll read something regarding the allied repairs of the republic's canal locks soon.

So much to be fascinated by!

L

DMcCunney wrote:

n7axw wrote:My guess is that Zhastro's Cities class will arrive in the area before the Haarahlds. Textev suggests that is already under consideration.

Zhastro's original destination had been Claw Island to reinforce Earl Sharpset, for deployment in the Bay of Gorath.

He got diverted by Rock Point to Do Something about the Desnairian privateers who were becoming an increasing threat to Charisian logistics supporting the ICA in Siddarmark.

The gas leak and fire at the Delthak works that delayed the KH construction was painful in part because the Cities wouldn't be available to sent to Sharpset. Howsman's senior mechanic overseeing the KH construction told him "Earl Sharpset needs these ships, and we aim to get them to him!"

We last saw Zhastro contenting himself by destroying the yards building the privateers, and paying attention to several of Desnair's largest cities (including Emperor Maryhys's preferred place of residence, and hoping Maryhys was home to get the message in person) while he was at it.

We haven't seen anything that indicates he's through with that chore yet, so his incomplete squadron (four of six intended vessels) won't be available to redeploy, and will still have transit time to Dohlar when they are.

The KH's are likely to get there before he can.

Don-

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Dennis

lyonheart wrote:Hi Dennis,

We had it from Rock Point in the inner circle discussion that the Cities couldn't get there faster than their coal collier galleons, or a month behind the 2 Rottweilers sent, which ought to be arriving soon.

Yep. And there was also the communications time to factor in, and how fast he could get the orders to them about the new destination. He mentioned he could have the Rottweilers on their way for a month before anything else could even be told to go.

While the textev states even though its 500 miles farther via Cherayth, the KH VII's would need only 24 days to reach Claw Island, and since the fire delayed thing only a couple of month's, ie from July, they could turn up at Claw Island in late October or November, though I'd prefer more testing time when so much aboard is brand new.

And my understanding is the delay got cut by a decision to provide a single 10" gun in a primary mount instead of the originally planned two, since 10" mount production was what got derailed. Essentially, the ICN will get a version of the pre-dreadnought armored cruiser instead of an actual dreadnought. It's still more than a match for anything the RDN has, so not a critical change.

So its possible they may strike before winter shuts everything down, preventing any reaction from the Go4 and the southern MH until spring, which enables the Dohlarans to solidify their position, with results some have suggested above.

Possible, and it would be nice.

I still question whether Clyntahn would agree to diverting any of the Southern Might Host to shore up Dohlar. He's focused on northern Siddarmark and re-taking lost games (and protecting his camps.) And as mentioned, if he did, they'd have the minor roadblocks of Eastshare and Green Valley, both of whom would probably thank God and the Archangls for an opportunity to catch a bite-sized chunck of the Mighty Host in an open field engagement. (I think Earl Rainbow Waters would have issues with being told to send some of the Mighty Host to help Dohlar, when he's already concerned about the strength allocated to the Southern Mighty Host.)

At the same time several of the original combined steam and sail type ships ought to also be under construction and even completed by now, given their better economy and security [they can run away from the privateers] for the next generation merchant ships, while their conservative sails reassure their owners and investors.

Given the threat level of the privateers, I'd be concerned about timing. Rock Point was already unhappy because he didn't have the hulls to place every merchantman in an escorted convoy (and one convoy suffered losses from privateers even though it was escorted, because it didn't have enough escorts to handle a coordinated attack by a dozen privateers. That level of coordination was another concern.)

If Rock Point could arrange that ships being sent solo were the new hybrid construction, life would get easier, but he's unlikely to have the luxury. And since we're talking about merchantmen, we have the question of how quickly they'll be bought and put into service by merchant fleet owners (who will also need time to retrain crews and add engineers and oilers to manage the steam power, and a working up period so everyone knows how to sail one.)

I actually see that construction coming into play after the Jihad when trade starts to bloom, and the EoC can safely reduce the size of the ICN. Crewmen with experience with steam powered vessels should have no problem finding alternate employment.

Since Charis can now afford building both, building 3-4 of each of the following to demonstrate their advantages in moving troops. horses, food, munitions and coal ought to encourage more investors and more construction.

It's not clear Charis can afford building both at the moment. It's not a question of marks, but rather of building capacity. I'm certain Sir Duncan and Master Howsmyn would like to be building twice as much as they currently are, but are currently at full capacity three shifts a day and can't.

Of course, steam tugs for Siddarmark's canals and rivers should already be busy there to accelerate internal supply and redeployment, besides generating an economic boom with faster transport to uplift the republic's population.

I'm sure whoever in Siddarmark is harbormaster for Bedard Bay has had to wipe the drool from his chin since he first heard about the steam tugs. He'll have to wait, though. I think Tellesberg can use more than just the Mule,

Hopefully we'll read something regarding the allied repairs of the republic's canal locks soon.

I'm sure that's being worked on. It's possible some of the POWs captured by the ICA are assisting in the process, and I wouldn't be surprised if at least some choose to stay in Siddarmark rather than be repatriated after the Jihad. Textev elsewhere spoke of CoC missionaries having success among the POWs, who had to wonder whether God and the Archangels were really on their side after what happened to them. Some of them might make themselves useful enough that Siddarmark will be willing to have them stay.

So much to be fascinated by!

Indeed.
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Dennis

DMcCunney wrote:

Randomiser wrote:NO way South Harchong is going to allow trade with a neutral Dohlar. SH are part of the most fanatically Temple Loyalist country on Safehold. So that idea is out.

<...>

Much snipped. Rather than deal with the fun of multiple levels of quoting, I'll summarize.

South Harchong seceding from the North
Yes, it's a large assumption.

But the original notion was Sharleyan's, brought up in an Inner Circle discussion of what might happen if the wheels came off the cart in North Harchong.

My question was how many peasants you could pull from the fields in North Harchong to serve in the Mighty Host before their agricultural system collapsed, and that arguably would make the wheels come off the cart.

The future of the RDN fleet
I didn't, and don't, think that Charis needs the RDN hulls added to the ICN. The RDN is the only other effective navy on Safehold. If Dohlar is knocked out of the the Jihad, Charis doesn't actually need their ships. They have enough hulls in commission to cover their needs. And current Dohlaran construction is no match for what Charis has now in any case. What would Charis do with a number of obsolete warships? And where would Rock Point find crews if he has uses for them? (The use I can see would be swatting Desnairian privateers, but we don't know how successful Zhastro's Cities have been and how great the remaining threat will be.)

But I wasn't actually talking about what might happen to the RDN. I was talking about what would happen to Dohlar. I don't think Charis needs or wants Dohlar as part of the EoC, and I don't think Charis really wants to invade and conquer it.

What Charis wants is Rahnyld's head on a platter for turning honorably surrendered Charisian navy personnel to the Inquisition, and Dohlar out of the Jihad as a combatant. I don't think invasion and conquest will be required to accomplish that, and doing so would be an even greater PITA than conquering Corisande. Charis has better things to do with the required resources.

And Cayleb and Sharleyan think longer term. I think they want to see an independent Dohlar that is a trading partner and then friend when the Jihad is over and the dust settles. The less bad blood and resentment that is stored up on both sides, the easier that will be.

And after Siddarmark, I think Dohlar is the major realm next most likely to embrace the idea of industrialization and economic growth on the Charisian model. They've already made a start on that to support the Jihad, and there's no reason they shouldn't continue on that path for other purposes.

New management in Dohlar
Dohlar in certainly under pressure. The RDN is largely confined to Gorath Bay and points west, and while they scored a tactical victory over Abbhat's squadron, they took losses too. Thirsk is still in a rebuilding phase, and his scarce resource is time. He needs more hulls, crewed, armed, and worked up, and he still faces the issue of needing a strong force advantage against comparable ICN vessels to win, because the ICN is still the better navy.

Once the KH VIIs arrive in Gorath Bay, he's screwed, though he won't know it till they arrive and the RDN tries to fight them.

Rychtyr is being steadily pushed back to Dohlar. He's fighting hard and giving ground grudgingly, and it's far more of a PITA for Earl Hanth than he's happy with, but he's doing it. What happens when Rychtyr is finally pushed back to Dohlar, and as far as Dohlar is concerned, positioned to invade?

This seems likely to happen about the time the KH VIIs arrive and start systematically blowing the RDN out of the water.

What does Dohlar do, if Charis makes plain "This can stop. Hand over Rahnyld, or hang him yourself, drop out of the Jihad, and sign a non-aggression treaty with us and Siddarmark, and we'll leave you alone." There might just be enough high placed Dohlarans tired of getting screwed trying to do what Clyntahn wants to decide replacing Rahnyld, dropping out of the Jihad, evictng the Inquisition, and signing a treaty with Charis is by far the lesser evil.

It's possible the EoC will have to destroy the RDN completely and invade Dohlar, but I don't think it will come to that.

Could the new government be trusted to actually honor the agreement? I think it probably could, depending on precisely who controls it, because they know what will happen if they don't, and Charis is likely to pledge to support them if they keep their end of the deal. The rational ones will know that Charis will keep its word.

Could that government be deposed and replaced by one less pliable who wants to return to the fight? Possible, but who would do it? That would lead to civil war in Dohlar. Bad for the Dohlarans, but not a direct threat to the EoC. They'd be preoccupied fighting each other.

Thirsk's loyalty to Rahnyld
I wasn't actually talking about what Thirsk might do. I think he's at the point of deciding his oaths to Rahnyld are null and void. But he's not the only actor in Dohlar, and while he might decide he can no longer support and obey Rahnyld, oaths or no oaths, how many other Dohlarans will do so? I think "He's the King, and we swore an oath" will still be operative for many. It will likely be the determining factor in how nay change of management in Dohlar occurs.

And Dohlar is a mirror of Safehold in that respect. Getting people to look past tradition and how they've always done things is part of what the EoC is pushing everyone to do.
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Dennis

DMcCunney wrote:snip
New management in Dohlar
Dohlar in certainly under pressure. The RDN is largely confined to Gorath Bay and points west, and while they scored a tactical victory over Abbhat's squadron, they took losses too. Thirsk is still in a rebuilding phase, and his scarce resource is time. He needs more hulls, crewed, armed, and worked up, and he still faces the issue of needing a strong force advantage against comparable ICN vessels to win, because the ICN is still the better navy.

Once the KH VIIs arrive in Gorath Bay, he's screwed, though he won't know it till they arrive and the RDN tries to fight them.

Rychtyr is being steadily pushed back to Dohlar. He's fighting hard and giving ground grudgingly, and it's far more of a PITA for Earl Hanth than he's happy with, but he's doing it. What happens when Rychtyr is finally pushed back to Dohlar, and as far as Dohlar is concerned, positioned to invade?

This seems likely to happen about the time the KH VIIs arrive and start systematically blowing the RDN out of the water.

What does Dohlar do, if Charis makes plain "This can stop. Hand over Rahnyld, or hang him yourself, drop out of the Jihad, and sign a non-aggression treaty with us and Siddarmark, and we'll leave you alone." There might just be enough high placed Dohlarans tired of getting screwed trying to do what Clyntahn wants to decide replacing Rahnyld, dropping out of the Jihad, evictng the Inquisition, and signing a treaty with Charis is by far the lesser evil.

It's possible the EoC will have to destroy the RDN completely and invade Dohlar, but I don't think it will come to that.

Could the new government be trusted to actually honor the agreement? I think it probably could, depending on precisely who controls it, because they know what will happen if they don't, and Charis is likely to pledge to support them if they keep their end of the deal. The rational ones will know that Charis will keep its word.

Could that government be deposed and replaced by one less pliable who wants to return to the fight? Possible, but who would do it? That would lead to civil war in Dohlar. Bad for the Dohlarans, but not a direct threat to the EoC. They'd be preoccupied fighting each other.

snip_______
Dennis

I find myself in total agreement. I am troubled by one point, though. Rahnahld's head on a platter. I find this is a just demand. Yet if his house retains the throne, how will any offspring of Rahnahld be anything but an enemy to Charis?

I wonder if requiring the removal of Rahnahld's house from throne will be sufficient retribution? Doing this illustrates that even mercy has a price for Safehold's aristocrats and royals. Faced with a choice of death or having one's house stripped of its authority, I wonder how many royals would choose death as the more lenient alternative?

In any case, offering this as a fall back option to Dohlar and have the selection of Rahnahld's replacement be based on a plebiscite would take care of any serious problems in the future. This would accomplish two things, make the ruler of Dohlar beholden to his people not the CoGA for his crown and remove any cause for animosity by having the next ruler of Dohlar passionately resent Charis for killing his/her father.

Do I think this might transpire? Yes, why yes I do. Low odds, but possible.

PeterZ wrote:
<Snip>

In any case, offering this as a fall back option to Dohlar and have the selection of Rahnahld's replacement be based on a plebiscite would take care of any serious problems in the future. This would accomplish two things, make the ruler of Dohlar beholden to his people not the CoGA for his crown and remove any cause for animosity by having the next ruler of Dohlar passionately resent Charis for killing his/her father.

Do I think this might transpire? Yes, why yes I do. Low odds, but possible.

A plebiscite with what kind of voter qualification? And who is likely to think that has any authority? Those Siddarmarkian republican swine possibly, but not good solid Dohlarans. You folks from the USA seem to have a touching faith in the universal recognition of the obvious rightness of democracy.

Of course, the former Crown Prince couldn't possibly have any resentment or animosity at the EoC for removing his family from the throne and blighting his personal prospects? And none of Dohlar's sterling nobles, a fine body of upright apolitical men, could possibly think that championing his cause, perhaps after the present little unpleasantness dies down, might be a way of improving their own position?

Are you aware of the rebellions of 1715 and 45 in Britain in support of the Stewart cause after Parliament displaced them as monarchs in favour of William and Mary in 1690? (Among other things it was a Catholic vs Protestant issue) I'm pretty sure Merlin is.

Randomiser wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
<Snip>

In any case, offering this as a fall back option to Dohlar and have the selection of Rahnahld's replacement be based on a plebiscite would take care of any serious problems in the future. This would accomplish two things, make the ruler of Dohlar beholden to his people not the CoGA for his crown and remove any cause for animosity by having the next ruler of Dohlar passionately resent Charis for killing his/her father.

Do I think this might transpire? Yes, why yes I do. Low odds, but possible.

A plebiscite with what kind of voter qualification? And who is likely to think that has any authority? Those Siddarmarkian republican swine possibly, but not good solid Dohlarans. You folks from the USA seem to have a touching faith in the universal recognition of the obvious rightness of democracy.

snip

Pretty much agree. To the best of the textev, there is absolutely no democratic tradition in Dohlar, and the attempt to impose one is likely to fail disastrously. Even a suggestion that only the aristocracy would be allowed to select the next monarch would be rejected as totally unacceptable.

The only way is to take the king's head, and drag off all of the closely related family to exile in Charis (since Cayleb, Sharlyan, and Mikel will never agree to killing a 16 year old, and his (hypothetical) younger siblings.

Randomiser wrote:
A plebiscite with what kind of voter qualification? And who is likely to think that has any authority? Those Siddarmarkian republican swine possibly, but not good solid Dohlarans. You folks from the USA seem to have a touching faith in the universal recognition of the obvious rightness of democracy.

Of course, the former Crown Prince couldn't possibly have any resentment or animosity at the EoC for removing his family from the throne and blighting his personal prospects? And none of Dohlar's sterling nobles, a fine body of upright apolitical men, could possibly think that championing his cause, perhaps after the present little unpleasantness dies down, might be a way of improving their own position?

Are you aware of the rebellions of 1715 and 45 in Britain in support of the Stewart cause after Parliament displaced them as monarchs in favour of William and Mary in 1690? (Among other things it was a Catholic vs Protestant issue) I'm pretty sure Merlin is.

Context is everything, Randomiser. As it stands now, the CoGA does not choose the monarch, it merely confirms the monarch. If Dohlar insists, they can seek confirmation from the CoGA. One suspects that they may wait until after the jihad or after Clyntahn has been removed.

Yet the fact remains that Dohlar acted to allows honorably surrendered POWs to be tortured at the hands of the Inquisition. Charis is right to demand justice for that action. Justice may come in the form of a reprisal to discourage others from committing the same atrocity or it may come as punishment from those responsible for allowing the atrocity in the first place. That justice will be imposed from the barrel of very large guns.

What will result from that justice? Killing Rahnahld and leaving his child as monarch will result in that child forever holding a grudge against Charis. Removing that House from the throne may result in future civil wars. This will only be possible if the CoGA backs Rahnahld's heirs in the future. Possible but unlikely after the CoGA will have had its moral authority so thoroughly destroyed. And if the CoGA gains that much authority and power back, Charis will be so seriously screwed that a Dohlaran civil war will be the least of their worries.

So, if Rahnahld chooses to abdicate and remove his line from the succession, what other means is there to decide? If Charis is advocating personal responsibility, then what can be more consistent than Dohlarans exercising that responsibility in choosing their new king? Its all a matter of being consistent.

Question: Why WOULD Charis do anything at all to Rahnyld? If you use Ferayd as the precedent for this kind of thing, then the Inquisition gets the lion's share of the blame and the country the offense took place in gets a relative love tap (assuming you can call burning everything in 2 miles of the waterfront a love tap) for punishment. Charis didn't go after Ferayd's royals, so why would they go after Rahnyld?

And if you look at it objectively, Ferayd was actually WORSE than anything Dohlar did. Dohlar handed over captured enemy combatants in time of war. Ferayd handed over (after massacring) Charisian civilians in time of (nominal) peace.

So unless Charis wants to start making themselves look like bloodthirsty monsters, I don't see them demanding Rahnyld's head. Or anything worse than what they did to Ferayd. If anything, I see Charis being lenient with Dohlar to encourage Dohlar to drop out of the war.

evilauthor wrote:Question: Why WOULD Charis do anything at all to Rahnyld? If you use Ferayd as the precedent for this kind of thing, then the Inquisition gets the lion's share of the blame and the country the offense took place in gets a relative love tap (assuming you can call burning everything in 2 miles of the waterfront a love tap) for punishment. Charis didn't go after Ferayd's royals, so why would they go after Rahnyld?

And if you look at it objectively, Ferayd was actually WORSE than anything Dohlar did. Dohlar handed over captured enemy combatants in time of war. Ferayd handed over (after massacring) Charisian civilians in time of (nominal) peace.

So unless Charis wants to start making themselves look like bloodthirsty monsters, I don't see them demanding Rahnyld's head. Or anything worse than what they did to Ferayd. If anything, I see Charis being lenient with Dohlar to encourage Dohlar to drop out of the war.

I don't totally disagree. There is one key difference between Ferayd and Dohlar's release of Charisian POWs. Delthak attempted to execute a policy they were within their acknowledged authority to do. The execution got way out of hand due to Inquisition excesses.

Dohlar accepted the Inquisition policy that the normal rules did not apply to Charisians. Charisians were in fact outlaw as in beyond the protection of the law so long as the jihad was in effect. If Charis acknowledges the Inquisition's authority to demand that of the nation's of Safehold, then where is the justification for their rebellion? If they do not accept the Inquisition has that authority, then they must hold other nations guilty for accepting that authority to justify abuses of the law.

Punishing the Dohlaran who was responsible for making the choice to accept Inquisition authority in this regard would be just. Extracting some other form of punishment may also be just. Transferring Dragon Island and the Island's of the Dohlar Bank to Charis may be such an alternative. Of course some form of restitution to the families is a given.