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The hypothetical 'Battle of Lovat'

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Re: The hypothetical 'Battle of Lovat'
Post by Somtaaw   » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:49 pm

Somtaaw
Rear Admiral

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Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:36 am
Location: Canada

munroburton wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:
There was a delay between the Manticoran courier boat arriving with the news 'Cromarty dead, Queen uninjured', and the Havenite courier boat from Saint-Just with his peace talks offer.

White Haven could easily have departed from Lovat after receiving the update about the assassination, and arrived in Lovat before the peace talk offer arrived. It took far less time for the assassination attempt to reach Manticore and then be forwarded to all fleet commanders, than it could possibly have taken to reach Saint-Just for the one-way Grayson>Haven route thanks to the Manticore<>Trevor Star junction.


The point I tried to make is, Hamish thought he had all the time in the universe to sort Haven out. He wasn't going to rush into a situation where his forces would essentially be exterminating Havenite personnel without authorisation. That's veering into grounds of war crime charges.

Remember that Hamish is also Willie Alexander's brother. The assassination was going to destabilise Manticoran politics sufficiently that Willie becoming Prime Minister was a difficult enough task without his brother becoming a rogue warlord.

He held fast, lest further action deliver the Star Kingdom into High Ridge's hands. As it happened, Elizabeth blew that one anyway, but Hamish was probably trying to avoid inflamming the SKM's domestic political situation by blowing through Lovat and Haven immediately without orders and ahead of schedule. Don't forget that the Cromarty Government diligently briefed all the opposition leaders fully - they were as informed of White Haven's plans as the Queen was!


Yes and no there. The news would hardly have put him into any war crimes region, Haven and Manticore were still at war, and outright assassination of your government (by the people you're at war with) doesn't suddenly negate that war, nor make you into a war criminal for continuing operations when you had no specific instructions by your government to cease and desist.

Everyone knows that intersystem schedules are made with slippage in mind. He was more or less into final pre-departure briefings when that intial news came in. His departure would simply have moved up by anywhere from 12 to 72 hours, unless there was an unspoken 'hold fast' instruction. And if he'd moved on Lovat, he could still have stopped prior to hitting Haven directly to find out the political scene.
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Re: The hypothetical 'Battle of Lovat'
Post by George J. Smith   » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:14 pm

George J. Smith
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Location: Ross-on-Wye UK

Ashes of Victory wrote:
Chapter Forty-One
Hamish Alexander stood on Benjamin the Great's flag deck with his hands clasped behind him and tried very hard not to feel a sense of godlike power.
snip...

But now, as White Haven gazed into the plot, a solid cone of green stars glowed amid the crimson traceries of Peep-held space.
That cone's base rested on the systems of Sun-Yat, to the northwest, and Welladay, to the southeast, and its tip was the Tequila System—pointing straight at Lovat from a distance of barely 3.75 light-years.
snip

Chapter Forty-Five
"So as soon as the last missile pods go aboard Nicator and Nestor, we'll be ready to resume operations," Captain Granston-Henley told the assembled flag officers of Eighth Fleet. "Admiral White Haven—" she nodded to where Hamish Alexander sat at the head of the conference table "—has decided to proceed on the basis of Sheridan One. As you all know, this ops plan calls for—"
snip...

"They sent the message off before they had full information, Sir. But according to what they did know, it looks like it was Masadan Faithful.
snip

Chapter Forty-Six
"They refused, didn't they?" William Alexander said wearily as Elizabeth III stalked into the room. The glare she gave him was more eloquent than words, and he shrugged exhausted shoulders. "We knew they were going to, Your Majesty. The way they see it, they had no choice."
snip

Chapter Forty-Seven
Oscar Saint-Just closed the file and leaned back in his chair.

snip...

"We just received a dispatch boat, My Lord. From the Peeps."
"From the Peeps?" White Haven repeated very carefully, and she nodded.
"Yes, Sir. She came over the hyper-wall twenty-six minutes ago. We just picked up her transmission five minutes and—" she glanced at a chrono of her own "—thirty seconds ago. It was in the clear, Sir."
"And it said?" he prompted as she paused as if uncertain how to proceed.
"It's a direct message from Saint-Just to Her Majesty, My Lord," Granston-Henley said. "He wants— Sir, he says he wants to convene peace talks!"


OK speculation time,

Chapter 41
Whitehaven is at the Tequila system

Chapter 45
How long would it have taken to load the last pods aboard Nicator & Nestor?

Chapter 46
How long would it have taken the opposition to agree to who got what and present their unworthy butts to Elizabeth?

Chapter 47
How long did it take for Saint-Just to get the feedback on the results of the operation?
How much time passed between receiving the feedback and actually sending the message to Tequila?
How long would it have taken to get the message from Nouveau Paris to Tequila?


I still say that Whitehaven should have pressed the advance on Lovat, and not continuing the offensive was all down to plot.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: The hypothetical 'Battle of Lovat'
Post by munroburton   » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:40 am

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2375
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

After the Battle of Barnett, the People's Republic no longer posed a danger to Manticore and no one was in doubt of that.

Some additional textev from AoV:
Chapter 45
A muted mutter of conversation sprang up all about him, but no one spoke directly to him, and he wondered if he was glad. They're waiting, he thought, Waiting for me, as Eighth Fleet's commander, to tell them what it all means... and where we go from here. But, my God - what does it mean?
His brain began to work with something like its accustomed speed as the initial shock receded. Of all the officers in the compartment, he was undoubtedly the best informed on the strengths and weaknesses of the Cromarty Government, since his brother was Chancellor of the Exchequer. By longstanding tradition, the person who held that post was not only the second ranking member of the Cabinet but the individual who took over as Prime Minister if something happened to its incumbent.
But that was under normal circumstances, and these were anything but normal. And if what Willie had told him about the balance in the House of Lords was as accurate as his brother's analyses usually were, then -
Hamish Alexander looked squarely into the abyss of the future, and what he saw there frightened him.


I'm still of the mind that Hamish, knowing the SKM's naval supremacy was totally assured for at least several years, had decided to avoid doing anything that would add more waves into the SKM's domestic political situation.

I wonder what he saw in that abyss. Probably Janacek's appointment as First Lord of the Admiralty - and I have no doubts that he would have stuck White Haven with any sort of charges if he thought they would stick.

Furthermore, I don't think the Cromarty Government had yet formulated any terms of surrender to accept, nor any instructions on what to do in the aftermath of seizing Nouveau Paris' orbits, never mind sending them to White Haven officially.

(Probably one of the things Cromarty, Earl Gold Peak, Prestwick and Hodges were discussing.)

Bit awkward to show up at Nouveau Paris, blow away everything armed, force an unconditional surrender and then be asked, "So... what do you want us to do with the other ~300 systems now?" "I'll get back to you in," *checks wrist* "About eight-to-twelve weeks, yeah."
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