ATST Snippet #1

PeterZ wrote:Yes and no, Don. The Writ still enshrines the Safeholdians' personal and primary responsibility to God. In this Safeholdians have failed. Charis absolving other nations of their responsibility is wrong. Treating all those nations that ignored God's commands as if they bore no responsibility because the human agents in the CoGA said to is very much absolving those other realms of their responsibility.

If the CoC is to survive a post jihad Safehold, then it must establish the Safeholdian's individual responsibility to God and the Safeholdian nation's primary responsibility to God. To do that they must take such a responsibility seriously, including holding violators of that responsibility to account.

I agree that just punishment must be meted out. Setting a purely financial punishment means that the lives that were treated like so much refuse could be replaced with money. They cannot. Some sort of pain or loss must be extracted. Destroying some part of the city will do it. Extracting an island to build and ICN outpost to ensure other POWs would fare better would also do it. A purely monetary payoff would be a crass gesture to the surviving families. Money and some other sacrifice would not.

Hi Peter,

You sound like a protestant!! The COGA sounds a bit more Catholic where the priest provides the interpretation of the Writ. Unfortunately in the case of Safehold, it would appear that the Writ says what the COGA says it does. Private readings are not welcome. Might sound like that heretic Michael Staynair...

So let's try the question a bit differently. Given the commitment of the Dohlarans to the authority of the COGA at the time the decision was made and the presence of the inquisition, was there anyone in Dohlar who could have stopped the transfer of the prisoners to Zion once Clyntahn demanded it? Thirsk apparently protested, but all going further would have accomplished would be to get Thirsk sent to Zion along with the prisoners...perhaps even with his family.

I am not trying to predict how the book will go here, rather am trying to come to grips with the moral issue of responsibility. I repeat my assertion here. Responsibility must fall on those who are actually guilty of either doing something or failing to do something that they could
have done to prevent harm.

I frankly had the same difficulty with what happened in Delferak. Given the presumption that what the church says goes, it is hard to see how what happened there could have been stopped. Hanging the inquisitors responsible for the crime was justice. But burning out people's homes within a two mile limit? I suppose you could call it retribution, but it was retribution visited on a whole bunch of folk who were innocent of the deed and could have done nothing about it even if they had known about it in advance.

So once the inquisition was involved, in your own mind, what would be a scenario in which the transfer of prisoners to Zion could have been stopped? I don't see it.

Don

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I think Ferayd comes under the heading of 'Collective punishment,' Don. I strongly suspect that all the natives on Safehold are working with a worldview that is more collectivist and less individualist than a modern US one. (Although there is a spectrum with Charis on one end and Harchong on the other.) Given that it is easier for them to see what happened at Ferayd as just punishment for the Community and nation of Delferahk rather than an injustice to the individual merchants or householders whose property was burned out. Even in modern warfare, we don't say 'Well we can't attack that enemy city because it will damage the property of lots of citizens who don't really support their government's attack on us.'

The problem in Delferahk was precisely the assumption that 'What the Church says goes, even when it says is 'Holy Langhorne and no quarter!' As for who could have stopped the seizure of Charisian vessels - clearly any of the king, his officials and the ranking army officer on the spot. i.e. the responsible officers of the Delferahkan government. Sure it would have landed them in a heap of trouble, but that doesn't change the moral aspect of the decisions they made. The fact that the moral decision was inexpedient doesn't change it's character.

I agree with Randomizer. Furthermore, text supports an absolutist view of morality on Safehold.

Recall that Trainayr agrees with Adm Rock Point regarding the guilt of the Ferayd Inquisitors. He even talked Clyntahn into sharing a tithe of the punishment as penance for his subordinates transgressions. That suggests there limits to what the Inquisition excuse through dispensations.

Also, if you reread Merlin's monologue after Nynian and Sandyra's first visit ti Nimue's cave, you will see how Safeholdians gain salvation. Salvation come from living life as God wishes so that one is prepared to join God in eternity. Life is preparation to join God. If a priest fails to prepare his flock, they are not excused for not living their life as God wished for them. No one can stand between God's justice or His grace.

In order for Charis and the CoC to survive in the long term, this truth must be accepted. The surest way to establish this is to govern the Co
C and EoC's relations as if this principle was absolute. Give mercy and justice based on that principle. Treat it as if the God of the Writ does indeed demand it of His children just as God truly does.C

Randomiser wrote:I think Ferayd comes under the heading of 'Collective punishment,' Don. I strongly suspect that all the natives on Safehold are working with a worldview that is more collectivist and less individualist than a modern US one. (Although there is a spectrum with Charis on one end and Harchong on the other.) Given that it is easier for them to see what happened at Ferayd as just punishment for the Community and nation of Delferahk rather than an injustice to the individual merchants or householders whose property was burned out. Even in modern warfare, we don't say 'Well we can't attack that enemy city because it will damage the property of lots of citizens who don't really support their government's attack on us.'

The problem in Delferahk was precisely the assumption that 'What the Church says goes, even when it says is 'Holy Langhorne and no quarter!' As for who could have stopped the seizure of Charisian vessels - clearly any of the king, his officials and the ranking army officer on the spot. i.e. the responsible officers of the Delferahkan government. Sure it would have landed them in a heap of trouble, but that doesn't change the moral aspect of the decisions they made. The fact that the moral decision was inexpedient doesn't change it's character.

A quote from HFaF might illuminate the EoC's attitude towards this sort of behaviour, as expressed by Merlin Athrawes. It comes from the end of the chapter "June, Year of God 895" Subchapter VI – "City of Gorath, Kingdom of Dohlar, and Royal Palace, Princedom of Corisande", which includes the last interview of Thirsk with Admiral Gwylym Manthyr, and reads Sir Gwylym Manthyr was right. What had happened to the city of Ferayd was nothing compared to what was going to happen to the city of Gorath.
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Peter2 wrote:

Randomiser wrote:I think Ferayd comes under the heading of 'Collective punishment,' Don. I strongly suspect that all the natives on Safehold are working with a worldview that is more collectivist and less individualist than a modern US one. (Although there is a spectrum with Charis on one end and Harchong on the other.) Given that it is easier for them to see what happened at Ferayd as just punishment for the Community and nation of Delferahk rather than an injustice to the individual merchants or householders whose property was burned out. Even in modern warfare, we don't say 'Well we can't attack that enemy city because it will damage the property of lots of citizens who don't really support their government's attack on us.'

The problem in Delferahk was precisely the assumption that 'What the Church says goes, even when it says is 'Holy Langhorne and no quarter!' As for who could have stopped the seizure of Charisian vessels - clearly any of the king, his officials and the ranking army officer on the spot. i.e. the responsible officers of the Delferahkan government. Sure it would have landed them in a heap of trouble, but that doesn't change the moral aspect of the decisions they made. The fact that the moral decision was inexpedient doesn't change it's character.

A quote from HFaF might illuminate the EoC's attitude towards this sort of behaviour, as expressed by Merlin Athrawes. It comes from the end of the chapter "June, Year of God 895" Subchapter VI – "City of Gorath, Kingdom of Dohlar, and Royal Palace, Princedom of Corisande", which includes the last interview of Thirsk with Admiral Gwylym Manthyr, and reads Sir Gwylym Manthyr was right. What had happened to the city of Ferayd was nothing compared to what was going to happen to the city of Gorath.
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I'm afraid you guys are probably right as much difficulty as I have with it.

Don

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PeterZ wrote:As I recall Dennis, the KH VIIs are due to be completed in 1-2 months. They'll be able to finish their trials and arrive on the Gulf of Dohlar by the end of March. We know Claw Island has had coal stored since the ICN retook the base. One suspects that more coal has been sent forward regularly. The KH VIIs would have not spared the coal on their trip and surely made it before Spring 898.

Oh, I'm sure the KH VIIs won't be concerned about fuel supplies once they reach the destination. Memory fails me on whether they'll need collier galleons sailing with them to provide enough coal to reach Claw Island, but I'll accept end of March as a timeframe for arrival.

Clyntahn has mentioned to Rayno he wanted to wait until Spring before sending for the crew and Thirsk. With his family dead, he might well making plans for taking Thirsk after all. The arrival of the KH VIIs may well forestall his plans for Thirsk in the hopes that the RDN might find away to defeat those ICN behemoths.

Since the Church will have gotten vague rumors at best about new Charisian construction, the arrival of the KH VIIs may be a nasty surprise. Exactly how nasty is something the RDN will have to pay in blood to demonstrate.

Clyntahn is only holding his hand on Thirsk because Thirsk's navy is the only military force loyal to Mother Church that has scored any victories against Charis since the Charisian Army got fully deployed in Siddermark. He's been forced to think about the effect on the deteriorating morale of the Faithful that removing Thirsk might have.

Because he doesn't know about the KH VIIs, Clyntahn's timetable on removing Thirsk is essentially "When will the glow of Thirsk's victories have worn off sufficiently to let me remove him without undesirable fallout?" That timetable hasn't changed.

My thought on the KH VIIs being used to free the crew was that with Mabb and the seijin network actively patrolling the road ways to Zion, Clyntahn would see sending the RDN crews to Zion aboard ship as the less risky. Afterall, the ICN has shown little appetite for freeing their enemies. Those demon seijin on the other hand have more than shown their desire to attack jihadi forces under the command of the Inquisition.

I don't see the demon seijins as affecting the decision, because of the nature of the mission.

Mab and his friends who are actually Owl's combat remotes have been cutting a bloody swath through the Inquisitors and particularly brutal AOG guards in Clyntahn's camps in northern Siddarmark, but have not been rescuing prisoners because they can't. They have no way to transport them east, even if they successfully kill all the Inquisitors and guards. Rayno will be well aware of that, even if Clyntahn hasn't considered it.

Merlin's efforts are aimed at reducing the brutality of the remaining camps, so that more of the prisoners will still be alive when the ICA can get to them.

Add to these considerations Hanth's and Eastshare's success and it may well appear that if Clyntahn wants his human sacrifices, he best send them by ship quickly before the ICN steamers cut off all oceangoing traffic. I am sure that Baron Sarmouth can replicate his feat using the KH VIIs much more easily than using his galleons.

Just how will Clyntahn get them delivered by sea? What ships would he use, and what route would they take?

Given who they would be transporting this time, Clyntahn will be even more reluctant to use RDN assets, but may not have any of the remaining NOG ships to use. And whatever gets used, it seems to have two possible routes - around the west coast of Dohlor to the Bay of Vess, terminating at Dairnyth, with the rest of the trip overland, or the long way around West Haven to the Great Western Ocean, up through the Wind Gulf Sea and the Ice Sea the the western half of Hsing-Wu's Passage, and from there to Temple Bay. That's not a short or quick trip, and overland is likely to be faster.

An attempted sea rescue presents the same sort of issues the rescue of the Charisian POWs did - "How do we avoid killing the people we are trying to rescue?" It was made somewhat easier with the Charisian POWs because they were concentrated in two merchant galleons with a warship escort, be we can't know what might be available this time. And Charis will want to actually rescue them, and not just provide the mercy of a quick death.

And while the KH VIIs are faster, Sarmouth won't need them for this and they are likely to be busy doing other things, like systematically destroying the RDN until it is forced to surrender.

So, if the Dohlaran crews are to be rescued by Allied forces, it will happen on the Oceans. By 2 bits anyway.

Possible but unlikely, for reasons detailed above. Given possible timing, I see the arrival of the KH VIIs and active operations in the Gulf of Dohlar precluding any attempt to send anyone anywhere.
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Dennis

My guess is that Zhastro's Cities class will arrive in the area before the Haarahlds. Textev suggests that is already under consideration.

Don

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n7axw wrote:My guess is that Zhastro's Cities class will arrive in the area before the Haarahlds. Textev suggests that is already under consideration.

Zhastro's original destination had been Claw Island to reinforce Earl Sharpset, for deployment in the Bay of Gorath.

He got diverted by Rock Point to Do Something about the Desnairian privateers who were becoming an increasing threat to Charisian logistics supporting the ICA in Siddarmark.

The gas leak and fire at the Delthak works that delayed the KH construction was painful in part because the Cities wouldn't be available to sent to Sharpset. Howsman's senior mechanic overseeing the KH construction told him "Earl Sharpset needs these ships, and we aim to get them to him!"

We last saw Zhastro contenting himself by destroying the yards building the privateers, and paying attention to several of Desnair's largest cities (including Emperor Maryhys's preferred place of residence, and hoping Maryhys was home to get the message in person) while he was at it.

We haven't seen anything that indicates he's through with that chore yet, so his incomplete squadron (four of six intended vessels) won't be available to redeploy, and will still have transit time to Dohlar when they are.

The KH's are likely to get there before he can.

Don-

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Dennis

PeterZ wrote:I agree with Randomizer. Furthermore, text supports an absolutist view of morality on Safehold.

Safeholdian morality does seem to be absolutist.

But on a deeper level, even today, how many believers actually read the scriptures that define what their theology believes? Offhand, I'd say "Fairly few". What they think they know about what the scripture says and what is required of them in consequence is what they get from the priest/minister/rabbi/imam/what-have-you when they attend religious services, and priests have been known to quote selectively to get the text to support a moral view or course of action they are pushing.

So it is on Safehold. In one Inner Circle conference detailed several books back, Merlin talked about the effect of increasing literacy. The Adams and Eves were all literate, but literacy declined greatly in later generations because most folks were too busy doing what was needed to survive to invest the time to become literate. As Safehold population increased and resources were available to support a literate class, more people beyond the priesthood and nobility became literate. This presented challenges for the CoGA, because the faithful could increasingly read what the Writ said for themselves instead of relying on the priests to tell them what it said.

And I suspect very few have read the entire Writ. You don't become intimately familiar with the Book of Pasquale, for instance, unless you are or plan to become a healer. The bits quoted in sermons that we've seen thus far tend to be apposite verses for the Books of Langhorne, Bedard, and Chihiro. If a religious publisher wanted to produce a pocket version of the Writ the faithful could carry around with them, I suspect large portions of the full writ would be left out as irrelevant to spiritual need.
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Dennis

DMcCunney wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I agree with Randomizer. Furthermore, text supports an absolutist view of morality on Safehold.

Safeholdian morality does seem to be absolutist.

But on a deeper level, even today, how many believers actually read the scriptures that define what their theology believes? Offhand, I'd say "Fairly few". What they think they know about what the scripture says and what is required of them in consequence is what they get from the priest/minister/rabbi/imam/what-have-you when they attend religious services, and priests have been known to quote selectively to get the text to support a moral view or course of action they are pushing.

So it is on Safehold. In one Inner Circle conference detailed several books back, Merlin talked about the effect of increasing literacy. The Adams and Eves were all literate, but literacy declined greatly in later generations because most folks were too busy doing what was needed to survive to invest the time to become literate. As Safehold population increased and resources were available to support a literate class, more people beyond the priesthood and nobility became literate. This presented challenges for the CoGA, because the faithful could increasingly read what the Writ said for themselves instead of relying on the priests to tell them what it said.

And I suspect very few have read the entire Writ. You don't become intimately familiar with the Book of Pasquale, for instance, unless you are or plan to become a healer. The bits quoted in sermons that we've seen thus far tend to be apposite verses for the Books of Langhorne, Bedard, and Chihiro. If a religious publisher wanted to produce a pocket version of the Writ the faithful could carry around with them, I suspect large portions of the full writ would be left out as irrelevant to spiritual need.
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Dennis

Undoubtedly, you are correct. That does not take away from the need of the CoC to assert a much more direct relationships between God and Man. Absent that direct relationship, the CoGA or its successor will simply rise anew working to strangle any thoughts that are different from its accepted doctrines.

By emphasizing the God's requirement for personal responsibility in how one lives, the ability for a church or any church to dictate morality wanes. That ability wanes because there can be as many churches as there are individual children of God deciding for themselves where their responsibility directs them...correctly or incorrectly.

So, the morality is absolute, but the understanding of how that absolute morality is to be applied is between God and the individual. I believe that is how the Writ is .... written.