ATST Snippet #1

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Re: ATST Snippet #1
by PeterZ » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:10 am
PeterZ Fleet Admiral Posts: 6432 Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm Location: Colorado	Let's assume that the KH VIIs stop at Shwei Bay and trash it thoroughly and completely. Yes, all three monsters cruise the shores and trash the ports and landing marines to truly complete the destruction. Thirsk hears about this and decides to meet the ICN behemoths in the open ocean. He would figure correctly that fighting steamers in any sort of enclosed or limited waters is allowing steamers to take advantage of their mobility and limiting the degree of freedom sailing vessels will have. Scenario 1- His sailing ships will engage the KH VIIs further out from Gorath itself and have his galleys come in once the KH VIIs are engaged. Baron Sarmouth simply steams past the RDN and prepares to shell the port city. The RDN will be hours behind. Scenario 2- Thirsk stays close to shore despite the loss of mobility and prepares to fight under the shore batteries. The KH VIIs stand off and shell the snot out of the shore batteries with impunity. The RDN must either sail into that massive broadside or surrender. Unless the wind is blowing directly into the KH VIIs, Thirsk has to take to reach the ICN. At each tack his ships lose almost all forward velocity. They become sitting ducks and will be under the KH VIIs guns the entire time. Suicide by ICN. Scenario 3- The KH VIIs sail into Gorath Bay. Thirsk surrenders. As I see it, Thirsk loses ships only if the ICN chooses to destroy them. If they wish to compel surrender, they simply bypass the ships and begin shelling the shore fortifications. Fewer people will die and the display will threaten the one deciding whether to surrender or not. Perhaps it would be beneficial to begin shelling the Inquisition headquarters. DMcCunney wrote:If Rahnyld doesn't issue a royal order for Thirsk to have his Navy commit suicide, he's not committing mutiny or treason if he orders his navy to surrender honorably after taking losses facing an overwhelming enemy. But I'm afraid his navy will have to take its lumps first. He can't simply surrender when the KH VIIs appear, even if Merlin hastold him what he'll be facing. How does he justify it? Announce "Seijin Merlin appeared in my townhouse and showed me what the ICN had up it's sleeve"? And I don't see Rahnyld being quite stupid enough to seek sanctuary in Zion, even if he could be sure he could get there. I'd say his days are numbered. _______ Dennis
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by PeterZ » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:10 am

PeterZ
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Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Let's assume that the KH VIIs stop at Shwei Bay and trash it thoroughly and completely. Yes, all three monsters cruise the shores and trash the ports and landing marines to truly complete the destruction.

Thirsk hears about this and decides to meet the ICN behemoths in the open ocean. He would figure correctly that fighting steamers in any sort of enclosed or limited waters is allowing steamers to take advantage of their mobility and limiting the degree of freedom sailing vessels will have.

Scenario 1-
His sailing ships will engage the KH VIIs further out from Gorath itself and have his galleys come in once the KH VIIs are engaged. Baron Sarmouth simply steams past the RDN and prepares to shell the port city. The RDN will be hours behind.

Scenario 2-
Thirsk stays close to shore despite the loss of mobility and prepares to fight under the shore batteries. The KH VIIs stand off and shell the snot out of the shore batteries with impunity. The RDN must either sail into that massive broadside or surrender. Unless the wind is blowing directly into the KH VIIs, Thirsk has to take to reach the ICN. At each tack his ships lose almost all forward velocity. They become sitting ducks and will be under the KH VIIs guns the entire time. Suicide by ICN.

Scenario 3- The KH VIIs sail into Gorath Bay. Thirsk surrenders.

As I see it, Thirsk loses ships only if the ICN chooses to destroy them. If they wish to compel surrender, they simply bypass the ships and begin shelling the shore fortifications. Fewer people will die and the display will threaten the one deciding whether to surrender or not. Perhaps it would be beneficial to begin shelling the Inquisition headquarters.

DMcCunney wrote:If Rahnyld doesn't issue a royal order for Thirsk to have his Navy commit suicide, he's not committing mutiny or treason if he orders his navy to surrender honorably after taking losses facing an overwhelming enemy. But I'm afraid his navy will have to take its lumps first. He can't simply surrender when the KH VIIs appear, even if Merlin hastold him what he'll be facing. How does he justify it? Announce "Seijin Merlin appeared in my townhouse and showed me what the ICN had up it's sleeve"?

And I don't see Rahnyld being quite stupid enough to seek sanctuary in Zion, even if he could be sure he could get there. I'd say his days are numbered.
_______
Dennis

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Re: ATST Snippet #1
by DMcCunney » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:59 pm
DMcCunney Captain of the List Posts: 453 Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:49 am	McGuiness wrote:Wow Dennis, you have some brilliant insights. And yeah, I was being a bit bloodthirsty when I wrote my original comment. PeterZ and I are pretty much agreed that Gorath won't burn - Ronald has to go, but Cayleb and Sharley need to add the velvet glove, so PeterZ's suggestion that they allow Dohlar to trade with South Harchong (and only South Harchong) makes extremely good sense. Cayleb and Sharleyan (and the rest of the Inner Circle) aren't stupid. They are aware that at some point the Jihad will be over. Then what? They won't be interested in adding provinces to the Empire, so Dohlor, Desnair, Delferak, Sodar, the Harchongs and the like will still be out there as independent polities. It's in the EoC's interest to minimize the bloodshed, to make it easier to bury the hatchet, become friends, and trade when the dust settles. The less they have to screw over Dohlor to accomplish their aims, the happier they'll be. Unlike Desnair, at least some of the Dohloran nobility has been demonstrated to have working brains, and will see the advantages to an equitable settlement and normalized relations and trade. I think it makes even better sense if you include my recommendation that rather than burning the RDN, the ICN removes most of the guns from each ship and allows Thirsk to use them as merchant escorts. That keeps his sailors busy, the hatchet gets buried, and we don't see wholesale slaughter from which the two country's relationship could never recover. I don't think Charis even needs to partially disarm Dohlor. A formal renunciation of the Jihad on the part of Dohlor, coupled with a treaty of non-aggression would do it, as Charis will already have given Dohlor an object lesson in what can happen to them if they backslide. Given what's happened to the Dohloran merchant marine, some of Thirsk's galleons might find themselves converted to merchantmen so Dohlor has the ability to trade using it's own bottoms, which would accomplish the same ends. I'm not convinced exactly how much damage the RDN will have to suffer before Thirsk orders it to surrender. When 100 lb shells start landing around his ships while the KH VIIs are still a mile or two out of range of the RDN's most powerful guns, it becomes blatantly obvious that any combat at all will just get men killed unnecessarily. Plus accounts of the shelling of seaports all along the northern Gulf of Dohlar will have arrived in Gorath long before Thirsk sorties - if he does. His sailors will have heard the rumors, and their desire to fight is going to melt away when they see the plumes of those impossibly large and long-ranged shells spouting out of the water around them! I have no idea how much damage the Dohloran navy will have to take before Thirsk feels he can get away with an honorable surrender. That will be a judgement call for him. I'm just certain that the Dohloran navy will have to take damage. Thirsk can't surrender without a fight, even if he knows what will happen if he does. If Thirsk is still in port, let the KH VIIs shell the water a mile behind him, and he can order his ships to strike as quickly as they can reach their flags! The whole city will be sitting on their roofs to watch the spectacle, so if Thirsk plays it smart and keeps his ships in view from shore, everyone will see why he struck - especially if he fires or skips a few hundred cannonballs across Gorath Bay and they fall a mile short! Heck, the KH VIIs can level the docks behind him just to pound home the futility of fighting back! If the KH VIIs can score some nasty hits at a range at which the Dohloran navy can't even shoot back, it will be an incentive to strike sooner rather than later. But I think there will still be the notion on the part of the Dohlorans that they should at least try to get close enough to shoot back, before they bow to the inevitable. The question is how much damage they'll have to take trying before they admit reality. (And they'll probably need to find out the hard way that if they do got close enough, their fire will bounce off.) Unfortunately I'm afraid that we're going to see at least one or more of his ships disappear in massive explosions as Charisian shells plunge through them and set off their magazines. Hundreds of men will die for nothing other than providing a fig leaf so Thirsk can surrender and rightfully state that if he didn't, he'd have lost every ship in his fleet - which he'll already know before the Cities and KH VIIs arrive. Unfortunately, yes. Thirsk has no choice about that, and knows it. And thinking about it, it might be a savvy move on the ICNs part to simply release captured Dohloran personnel after the fight without requiring things like parole. (And to make it blindingly clear that Dohloran wounded got the same care from Charisian healers that ICN personnel did.) That might go a long way to getting Dohlor to sign the sort of treaty Charis is likely to want, and keep it once they have. If Thirsk is an example, Dohlorans set a good deal of store in honor, and demonstrations by Charis that it does too will go a long way toward establishing good relations. Charis can say "We didn't want to fight you in the first place, and we recognize that you only fought us because Mother Church told you to. We'll bury the hatchet if you will..." The EoC has a use for the RDN. If they sign a treaty that allows Dohlar to trade with South Harchong and the allies, then the Royal navy will be desperately needed to escort civilian convoys. Desnair will be more than happy to try to raid Dohlaran shipping and I'm sure Clyntahn will put offer a nice reward (that Duchairn will point out they can't afford!) to any captain who captures a Dohlaran merchant vessel. If Charis can can sign an equitable agreement with Dohlor, I agree. We have the delightful prospect of Dohlor taking the lead in Doing Something about the Desnairian privateers. It think Dohlor would be (privately) delighted at the notion of sticking a thumb in Desnair's eye that way. And while we haven't heard much about them, Trellheim has been described as being a pain in that respect, which could provide additional gainful employment for the Dohloran navy. The Dohlaran merchant marine was stripped badly to fill out the ranks of the navy, so even with reduced crews, there probably aren't enough sailors in Dohlar to man the hulls available. Of course there isn't much to trade at the moment in non-war related goods, but Charis will work out a deal with Silkiah to use the Salthar canal, and a deal with South Harchong to open several of their ports to both Dohlar and the EoC. See above about the possibility of Dohloran warships getting converted to merchantmen. And Dohlor already resorted to the press to expand the pool available to their navy. Remember that Thirsk was the one who recommended seamen raised that way be paid by Mother Church, with the option of having their pay given to their families, which avoided the instant impoverishment and family suffering having the breadwinner snapped up in by press normally produced. I sincerely hope that the ICN can either convince or force Dohlar to turn over the leadership responsible for sending their sailors to be tortured and murdered in Zion. It would do Dohlar a lot of good long-term to get rid of Clyntahn's toadies, and to make sure that none of them end up on the regency council. Getting rid of the Inquisition would be a healthy move as well. Thirsk will certainly agree. I think Bishop Maik might, too, though he's unlikely to say so publicly. Since a good deal of the point of the ICN paying a visit to Gorath Bay will be pressing their demand for Rahnyld's head on a platter, I think something like that is likely. They can demand Kharmych's head as well, which would be step one in kicking out the Inquisition. I'm sure Cayleb and Sharley wish they could dismantle the Dohlaran army, but they'll have to leave it in place so it can defend the country from the inevitable retribution for pulling out of the Jihad. There's a chance we could see the ICA fighting side-by-side with the Dohlarans inside Dohlar. That's an interesting notion. Agreed that Dohlor will need an army. If nothing else, Desnair might be stupid enough to get aggressive, partly to keep Zion happy, and partly because territorial expansion has been something Desnair has done for centuries. I think Ahlverez and Richter would consider themselves quite competent to teach Desnair the error of its ways in such a case, and might be delighted to prove it. And if the proper treaties can be signed, Siddarmark might just offer to help. I'm not sure if they'll leave Thirsk's wizard in place though. He could have a bright future working for Howsmyn, and any future inventions he comes up with should definitely not be shared with the Inquisition! If I were them, I would leave Thirsk's wizard in place. That sort of innovation on the part of other realms is what the Inner Circle wants to see, even if they can't come out and say so and explain why. Assuming a settlement can be reached with Dohlor, no reason not to leave him. Down the road, I can even see him getting a visit from one of Howsmyn's technical missions, and the tech transfer wouldn't be one way. _______ Dennis
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Re: ATST Snippet #1

by DMcCunney » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:59 pm

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Posts: 453
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McGuiness wrote:Wow Dennis, you have some brilliant insights. And yeah, I was being a bit bloodthirsty when I wrote my original comment. PeterZ and I are pretty much agreed that Gorath won't burn - Ronald has to go, but Cayleb and Sharley need to add the velvet glove, so PeterZ's suggestion that they allow Dohlar to trade with South Harchong (and only South Harchong) makes extremely good sense.

Cayleb and Sharleyan (and the rest of the Inner Circle) aren't stupid. They are aware that at some point the Jihad will be over. Then what?

They won't be interested in adding provinces to the Empire, so Dohlor, Desnair, Delferak, Sodar, the Harchongs and the like will still be out there as independent polities. It's in the EoC's interest to minimize the bloodshed, to make it easier to bury the hatchet, become friends, and trade when the dust settles. The less they have to screw over Dohlor to accomplish their aims, the happier they'll be. Unlike Desnair, at least some of the Dohloran nobility has been demonstrated to have working brains, and will see the advantages to an equitable settlement and normalized relations and trade.

I think it makes even better sense if you include my recommendation that rather than burning the RDN, the ICN removes most of the guns from each ship and allows Thirsk to use them as merchant escorts. That keeps his sailors busy, the hatchet gets buried, and we don't see wholesale slaughter from which the two country's relationship could never recover.

I don't think Charis even needs to partially disarm Dohlor. A formal renunciation of the Jihad on the part of Dohlor, coupled with a treaty of non-aggression would do it, as Charis will already have given Dohlor an object lesson in what can happen to them if they backslide.

Given what's happened to the Dohloran merchant marine, some of Thirsk's galleons might find themselves converted to merchantmen so Dohlor has the ability to trade using it's own bottoms, which would accomplish the same ends.

I'm not convinced exactly how much damage the RDN will have to suffer before Thirsk orders it to surrender. When 100 lb shells start landing around his ships while the KH VIIs are still a mile or two out of range of the RDN's most powerful guns, it becomes blatantly obvious that any combat at all will just get men killed unnecessarily. Plus accounts of the shelling of seaports all along the northern Gulf of Dohlar will have arrived in Gorath long before Thirsk sorties - if he does. His sailors will have heard the rumors, and their desire to fight is going to melt away when they see the plumes of those impossibly large and long-ranged shells spouting out of the water around them!

I have no idea how much damage the Dohloran navy will have to take before Thirsk feels he can get away with an honorable surrender. That will be a judgement call for him. I'm just certain that the Dohloran navy will have to take damage. Thirsk can't surrender without a fight, even if he knows what will happen if he does.

If Thirsk is still in port, let the KH VIIs shell the water a mile behind him, and he can order his ships to strike as quickly as they can reach their flags! The whole city will be sitting on their roofs to watch the spectacle, so if Thirsk plays it smart and keeps his ships in view from shore, everyone will see why he struck - especially if he fires or skips a few hundred cannonballs across Gorath Bay and they fall a mile short! Heck, the KH VIIs can level the docks behind him just to pound home the futility of fighting back!

If the KH VIIs can score some nasty hits at a range at which the Dohloran navy can't even shoot back, it will be an incentive to strike sooner rather than later. But I think there will still be the notion on the part of the Dohlorans that they should at least try to get close enough to shoot back, before they bow to the inevitable. The question is how much damage they'll have to take trying before they admit reality. (And they'll probably need to find out the hard way that if they do got close enough, their fire will bounce off.)

Unfortunately I'm afraid that we're going to see at least one or more of his ships disappear in massive explosions as Charisian shells plunge through them and set off their magazines. Hundreds of men will die for nothing other than providing a fig leaf so Thirsk can surrender and rightfully state that if he didn't, he'd have lost every ship in his fleet - which he'll already know before the Cities and KH VIIs arrive.

Unfortunately, yes. Thirsk has no choice about that, and knows it.

And thinking about it, it might be a savvy move on the ICNs part to simply release captured Dohloran personnel after the fight without requiring things like parole. (And to make it blindingly clear that Dohloran wounded got the same care from Charisian healers that ICN personnel did.) That might go a long way to getting Dohlor to sign the sort of treaty Charis is likely to want, and keep it once they have. If Thirsk is an example, Dohlorans set a good deal of store in honor, and demonstrations by Charis that it does too will go a long way toward establishing good relations. Charis can say "We didn't want to fight you in the first place, and we recognize that you only fought us because Mother Church told you to. We'll bury the hatchet if you will..."

The EoC has a use for the RDN. If they sign a treaty that allows Dohlar to trade with South Harchong and the allies, then the Royal navy will be desperately needed to escort civilian convoys. Desnair will be more than happy to try to raid Dohlaran shipping and I'm sure Clyntahn will put offer a nice reward (that Duchairn will point out they can't afford!) to any captain who captures a Dohlaran merchant vessel.

If Charis can can sign an equitable agreement with Dohlor, I agree. We have the delightful prospect of Dohlor taking the lead in Doing Something about the Desnairian privateers. It think Dohlor would be (privately) delighted at the notion of sticking a thumb in Desnair's eye that way. And while we haven't heard much about them, Trellheim has been described as being a pain in that respect, which could provide additional gainful employment for the Dohloran navy.

The Dohlaran merchant marine was stripped badly to fill out the ranks of the navy, so even with reduced crews, there probably aren't enough sailors in Dohlar to man the hulls available. Of course there isn't much to trade at the moment in non-war related goods, but Charis will work out a deal with Silkiah to use the Salthar canal, and a deal with South Harchong to open several of their ports to both Dohlar and the EoC.

See above about the possibility of Dohloran warships getting converted to merchantmen. And Dohlor already resorted to the press to expand the pool available to their navy. Remember that Thirsk was the one who recommended seamen raised that way be paid by Mother Church, with the option of having their pay given to their families, which avoided the instant impoverishment and family suffering having the breadwinner snapped up in by press normally produced.

I sincerely hope that the ICN can either convince or force Dohlar to turn over the leadership responsible for sending their sailors to be tortured and murdered in Zion. It would do Dohlar a lot of good long-term to get rid of Clyntahn's toadies, and to make sure that none of them end up on the regency council. Getting rid of the Inquisition would be a healthy move as well.

Thirsk will certainly agree. I think Bishop Maik might, too, though he's unlikely to say so publicly.

Since a good deal of the point of the ICN paying a visit to Gorath Bay will be pressing their demand for Rahnyld's head on a platter, I think something like that is likely. They can demand Kharmych's head as well, which would be step one in kicking out the Inquisition.

I'm sure Cayleb and Sharley wish they could dismantle the Dohlaran army, but they'll have to leave it in place so it can defend the country from the inevitable retribution for pulling out of the Jihad. There's a chance we could see the ICA fighting side-by-side with the Dohlarans inside Dohlar.

That's an interesting notion. Agreed that Dohlor will need an army. If nothing else, Desnair might be stupid enough to get aggressive, partly to keep Zion happy, and partly because territorial expansion has been something Desnair has done for centuries. I think Ahlverez and Richter would consider themselves quite competent to teach Desnair the error of its ways in such a case, and might be delighted to prove it. And if the proper treaties can be signed, Siddarmark might just offer to help.

I'm not sure if they'll leave Thirsk's wizard in place though. He could have a bright future working for Howsmyn, and any future inventions he comes up with should definitely not be shared with the Inquisition!

If I were them, I would leave Thirsk's wizard in place. That sort of innovation on the part of other realms is what the Inner Circle wants to see, even if they can't come out and say so and explain why. Assuming a settlement can be reached with Dohlor, no reason not to leave him. Down the road, I can even see him getting a visit from one of Howsmyn's technical missions, and the tech transfer wouldn't be one way.
_______
Dennis

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Re: ATST Snippet #1
by DMcCunney » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:08 pm
DMcCunney Captain of the List Posts: 453 Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:49 am	Sharp Claw wrote:When Merlin tells Thirsk that time is pressing and he still has a long way to go tonight , it makes me wonder if Merlin's next move will be to visit Ahlvarez? Interesting notion, but unlikely. He has the advantage in visiting Thirsk that Thirsk has already met him in his Merlin persona. Ahlvarez has not. (Though Ahlvarez's reaction if he got such a visit from Zhapeth Slaytr would be lovely to see... ) If Merlin is aware of any growing relationship between Thirsk and Ahlvarez, he may just let Thirsk do the reaching out. _______ Dennis
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Re: ATST Snippet #1

by DMcCunney » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:08 pm

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Posts: 453
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Sharp Claw wrote:When Merlin tells Thirsk that time is pressing and he still has a long way to go tonight , it makes me wonder if Merlin's next move will be to visit Ahlvarez?

Interesting notion, but unlikely. He has the advantage in visiting Thirsk that Thirsk has already met him in his Merlin persona. Ahlvarez has not. (Though Ahlvarez's reaction if he got such a visit from Zhapeth Slaytr would be lovely to see...

)

If Merlin is aware of any growing relationship between Thirsk and Ahlvarez, he may just let Thirsk do the reaching out.
_______
Dennis

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Re: ATST Snippet #1
by saber964 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:21 pm
saber964 Admiral Posts: 2423 Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:41 pm Location: Spokane WA USA	DMcCunney wrote: McGuiness wrote:Let's keep in mind that Clyntahn has no military authority to issue orders to the army or navy, which Kaitswyrth should have taken into consideration! Clyntahn and cronies had been leaning on the long standing tradition that secular realms cooperate when called upon by Mother Church. It's how he got Chisholm, Corisande, Emerald, Tarot, and Dohlor to combines their navies under Hector of Corisande's overall command to go and crush Charis. It wasn't till after their combined navies suffered a crushing defeat that the CoGA realized they needed military power not borrowed from secular supporters and began trying to create it. So if Thirsk refuses to obey an order from Clyntahn or anyone in the Inquisition for his fleet to engage in a hopeless assault against the ICN when it arrives with KH VII battleships, he hasn't done anything wrong. Legally, no. In practice it's another matter. Remember, he commands the Dohlaran Royal Navy. If King Ronald sends the same order, then Thirsk will have to examine his oath to the navy and his king. Do those oaths require him to sacrifice himself and his men on a mission that is nothing less than suicide? Did his king prevent his family from being seized as pawns by the Inquisition? Has his King acted with honor, or besmirched Thirsk's honor by turning his Charisian POWs over to the Inquisition - twice! The question is whether Ranhyld will issue that order if Clyntahn says to. He's been depicted as a man totally unfit for his position, who had already had theoretical discussions with his First Councilor about abdicating, and hasn't done so only because the next in succession isn't old enough to assume the throne under Dohlaran law. It's possible he'll dither into effective catatonia if told to issue the order. There's no way he'll refuse, but he might just be paralyzed into doing nothing. That will present a pretty predicament for Clyntahn. What does he do? Try to have the Inquisition arrest King Rahnyld? Leaving aside the minor problem of who will do the arresting and take him into custody, actually trying might have unintended consequences in Dohlor. I doubt any senior Dohlorans have much respect for Rahnyld, but he is their King, and they take their oaths seriously. The Inquisition arresting Rahnyld for not ordering Thirk and his navy to commit suicide by sallying against the ICN won't go over well. But the alternatives for Thirsk will be either sit tight in port, get his people off their ships and to shore, and watch the ICN destroy his fleet, or formally surrender and have his ships confiscated and his men taken into custody as POWs. He'll know Charis will treat them honorably, but it will really go against the grain. If it comes to it, Thirsk will probably sally and take losses to defend Gorath, but order surrender at the point where any rational observer will agree that further combat will simply get every ship sunk and every crew member killed. I suspect Charis will prefer to do as little damage as possible, and will settle for a point where they can tell the Dohloran government: "This can stop. We want Rahnyld's head for turning over our honorably surrendered prisoners to the Inquisition to face the Punishment. Depose Rahnyld and let us hang him or do it yourselves, replace him with a new King or a Regency Council till his successor is old enough, and drop out the Jihad and sign a treaty of neutrality that you actually keep and we'll go away and leave you alone. If we have to come back, we won't stop with Rahnyld's head, and every senior member of your government will need to find a deep hole to hide in. And while you're at it, given who got you into this mess, you might consider telling the Inquisition they are no longer welcome in Dohlor. If you want assistance in kicking them out with their tails between their legs, we'll be delighted to provide it..." In this case, the ICN is headed for Gorath in retribution for the death via the Punishment of several hundred Charisian POWs who surrendered to Thirsk in good faith, expecting to be treated according to the Laws of War. (Pre-jihad.) Their commander was Cayleb's flag captain at Armageddon Reef, and both Cayleb and Merlin were infuriated by the murder of their sailors and that there was nothing they could do to stop it. Time may have burned away some of the emotional intensity but not their thirst for justice. King Ronald recently turned a second batch of Charisian POWs over to the Inquisition, which were fortunately rescued. So perhaps the entire capital city of Dohlar will burn. I doubt it. Consider Ferayd, where Charis's response the the Inquisition incited massacre of Charisian merchant ship personnel was to level the waterfront and everything within two miles of it, and hang the Inquisitors who incited it. But they took pains to avoid civilian casualties and collateral damage. The Delferakan military took losses trying to defend Ferayd, but that would be expected by everybody. It's the military's job to die defending their country and people. I don't see Charis being more vicious in reprisals against Dohlor. I think Cayleb and Sharleyan's attitude will be the sort of thing Prince Nahrman might say. If asked, his advice is likely to be "Shoot the leaders! Don't kill the poor guys just following orders and fighting for their country and their cause if you don't have to. Kill the ones who gave them the orders." Perhaps a combination of Ferayd and Iythria - burn all the manufacturies of war materials, their supplies, and all their finished products. Burn the Dohlaran fleet, destroy the royal palace, and level every building within a predetermined distance from the harbor - and Gorath has a much larger harbor than Ferayd! Demand King Ronald's head on a pike, we can't forget that! (Thirsk is destined to serve on the regency council, after all!) I think Cayleb and Sharleyan will settle for Rahnyld's head on a pike outside his palace, and Dohlor knocked out of the Jihad with a declaration of neutrality and a permanent non-aggression treaty. This may seem like a bit much, but considering that it isn't much more than was required at Iythria, and Ferayd lost every building within a mile of the harbor for the deaths of a few dozen civilians, and for sending the survivors to Zion to face the Question and the Punishment. In Gorath's case, Cayleb and Sharley are seeking justice for the horrific torture and murder of hundreds of Charisian seamen who surrendered honorably under the laws of war, which precluded such treatment! And the people you take measures against are those who allowed it to occur. That's Rahnyld and possibly some of his senior ministers. It doesn't mean the people who just happen to live in Gorath. I'm sure Cayleb and Sharley decided on an equitable punishment long ago, but since they're also trying to knock Dohlar out of the war, dealing them a massive blow is going be necessary, and they can't work with a snake like King Ronald. Remove and execute him, and they don't have to. I think his head with be the one real non-negotiable demand. His successor can sign the required treaties. That's where Thirsk and Ahlverez and whoever else is willing to break from the jihad to save their country comes into the picture. The very survival of Dohlar as a nation is at stake. Millions of Siddarmarkans are screaming for blood, and the leaders of the army and navy have grave doubts about the cause they're serving, and even larger doubts about their ability to successfully defend their country. The eastern front between Dohlar and Siddarmark is bound to collapse under Hanth's reinforced assault sooner or later. Thirsk's fleet won't survive the "Battle" of Gorath, and by the time the battle arrives, Thirsk will be well aware of that. I think Thirsk is already aware of that. His challenge has been to rebuild the Dohloran Navy into something that can face the ICN at sea, and he's likely well aware that the scarce resource is time. He needs to improve and expand the Dohloran Navy before Charis can divert significant ICN resources to deal with Dohlor, and everything he's heard courtesy of Bishop Maik will only tell him that Charis is building new ships even more powerful than the ones he'd have trouble taking now without a significant force advantage. If that new construction does come to call, he's screwed and he knows it. He's not obligated to lead his fleet on a suicide mission, so when the KH VIIs appear, he can safely surrender his fleet and everyone will understand why and agree with his decision. (Except for the Inquisition, but nothing makes those guys happy except pulling the wings off of flies and torturing small, helpless animals.) I'm afraid he'll have to take damage first. No one in Dohlor will understand what the KH VIIs are and can do, or will understand facing them is a suicide mission. They'll need to be taught a painful object lesson before Thirsk can order surrender. Given the history between Dohlor and Charis, his own people will want to fight, and will have to take nasty losses before they agree surrender is required. Once Dohlar officially withdraws from the jihad, Thirsk technically hasn't committed treason or mutinied, since he was following the (eventual) lawful orders of his king. (Who is quite likely to be Ronald's son at that point, with Ronald either a Charisian prisoner for life, dead, or fled to Zion where Clyntahn will have him put to the Punishment as an example for any other rulers who might consider switching sides or declaring neutrality.) If Rahnyld doesn't issue a royal order for Thirsk to have his Navy commit suicide, he's not committing mutiny or treason if he orders his navy to surrender honorably after taking losses facing an overwhelming enemy. But I'm afraid his navy will have to take its lumps first. He can't simply surrender when the KH VIIs appear, even if Merlin hastold him what he'll be facing. How does he justify it? Announce "Seijin Merlin appeared in my townhouse and showed me what the ICN had up it's sleeve"? And I don't see Rahnyld being quite stupid enough to seek sanctuary in Zion, even if he could be sure he could get there. I'd say his days are numbered. _______ Dennis I think RFC is modeling the Inquisition after the KGB Third Directorate which was in charge of the political reliability of the Soviet military. They could issue and countermanded orders if the KGB officer felt it was politically expedient to do so, and with a very large threat, namely the arrest and up to and including the execution of the offenders entire family including Parents Spouse Children and in extreme cases Siblings and their families. Remember Clyntahn orders to Rayno about Jariss and Kholmahns relatives.
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Re: ATST Snippet #1

by saber964 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:21 pm

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DMcCunney wrote:
McGuiness wrote:Let's keep in mind that Clyntahn has no military authority to issue orders to the army or navy, which Kaitswyrth should have taken into consideration!

Clyntahn and cronies had been leaning on the long standing tradition that secular realms cooperate when called upon by Mother Church. It's how he got Chisholm, Corisande, Emerald, Tarot, and Dohlor to combines their navies under Hector of Corisande's overall command to go and crush Charis. It wasn't till after their combined navies suffered a crushing defeat that the CoGA realized they needed military power not borrowed from secular supporters and began trying to create it.

So if Thirsk refuses to obey an order from Clyntahn or anyone in the Inquisition for his fleet to engage in a hopeless assault against the ICN when it arrives with KH VII battleships, he hasn't done anything wrong.

Legally, no. In practice it's another matter.

Remember, he commands the Dohlaran Royal Navy. If King Ronald sends the same order, then Thirsk will have to examine his oath to the navy and his king. Do those oaths require him to sacrifice himself and his men on a mission that is nothing less than suicide? Did his king prevent his family from being seized as pawns by the Inquisition? Has his King acted with honor, or besmirched Thirsk's honor by turning his Charisian POWs over to the Inquisition - twice!

The question is whether Ranhyld will issue that order if Clyntahn says to. He's been depicted as a man totally unfit for his position, who had already had theoretical discussions with his First Councilor about abdicating, and hasn't done so only because the next in succession isn't old enough to assume the throne under Dohlaran law.

It's possible he'll dither into effective catatonia if told to issue the order. There's no way he'll refuse, but he might just be paralyzed into doing nothing. That will present a pretty predicament for Clyntahn. What does he do? Try to have the Inquisition arrest King Rahnyld? Leaving aside the minor problem of who will do the arresting and take him into custody, actually trying might have unintended consequences in Dohlor. I doubt any senior Dohlorans have much respect for Rahnyld, but he is their King, and they take their oaths seriously. The Inquisition arresting Rahnyld for not ordering Thirk and his navy to commit suicide by sallying against the ICN won't go over well.

But the alternatives for Thirsk will be either sit tight in port, get his people off their ships and to shore, and watch the ICN destroy his fleet, or formally surrender and have his ships confiscated and his men taken into custody as POWs. He'll know Charis will treat them honorably, but it will really go against the grain.

If it comes to it, Thirsk will probably sally and take losses to defend Gorath, but order surrender at the point where any rational observer will agree that further combat will simply get every ship sunk and every crew member killed.

I suspect Charis will prefer to do as little damage as possible, and will settle for a point where they can tell the Dohloran government:

"This can stop. We want Rahnyld's head for turning over our honorably surrendered prisoners to the Inquisition to face the Punishment. Depose Rahnyld and let us hang him or do it yourselves, replace him with a new King or a Regency Council till his successor is old enough, and drop out the Jihad and sign a treaty of neutrality that you actually keep and we'll go away and leave you alone. If we have to come back, we won't stop with Rahnyld's head, and every senior member of your government will need to find a deep hole to hide in.

And while you're at it, given who got you into this mess, you might consider telling the Inquisition they are no longer welcome in Dohlor. If you want assistance in kicking them out with their tails between their legs, we'll be delighted to provide it..."

In this case, the ICN is headed for Gorath in retribution for the death via the Punishment of several hundred Charisian POWs who surrendered to Thirsk in good faith, expecting to be treated according to the Laws of War. (Pre-jihad.) Their commander was Cayleb's flag captain at Armageddon Reef, and both Cayleb and Merlin were infuriated by the murder of their sailors and that there was nothing they could do to stop it. Time may have burned away some of the emotional intensity but not their thirst for justice. King Ronald recently turned a second batch of Charisian POWs over to the Inquisition, which were fortunately rescued. So perhaps the entire capital city of Dohlar will burn.

I doubt it.

Consider Ferayd, where Charis's response the the Inquisition incited massacre of Charisian merchant ship personnel was to level the waterfront and everything within two miles of it, and hang the Inquisitors who incited it. But they took pains to avoid civilian casualties and collateral damage. The Delferakan military took losses trying to defend Ferayd, but that would be expected by everybody. It's the military's job to die defending their country and people.

I don't see Charis being more vicious in reprisals against Dohlor. I think Cayleb and Sharleyan's attitude will be the sort of thing Prince Nahrman might say. If asked, his advice is likely to be "Shoot the leaders! Don't kill the poor guys just following orders and fighting for their country and their cause if you don't have to. Kill the ones who gave them the orders."

Perhaps a combination of Ferayd and Iythria - burn all the manufacturies of war materials, their supplies, and all their finished products. Burn the Dohlaran fleet, destroy the royal palace, and level every building within a predetermined distance from the harbor - and Gorath has a much larger harbor than Ferayd! Demand King Ronald's head on a pike, we can't forget that! (Thirsk is destined to serve on the regency council, after all!)

I think Cayleb and Sharleyan will settle for Rahnyld's head on a pike outside his palace, and Dohlor knocked out of the Jihad with a declaration of neutrality and a permanent non-aggression treaty.

This may seem like a bit much, but considering that it isn't much more than was required at Iythria, and Ferayd lost every building within a mile of the harbor for the deaths of a few dozen civilians, and for sending the survivors to Zion to face the Question and the Punishment. In Gorath's case, Cayleb and Sharley are seeking justice for the horrific torture and murder of hundreds of Charisian seamen who surrendered honorably under the laws of war, which precluded such treatment!

And the people you take measures against are those who allowed it to occur. That's Rahnyld and possibly some of his senior ministers. It doesn't mean the people who just happen to live in Gorath.

I'm sure Cayleb and Sharley decided on an equitable punishment long ago, but since they're also trying to knock Dohlar out of the war, dealing them a massive blow is going be necessary, and they can't work with a snake like King Ronald.

Remove and execute him, and they don't have to. I think his head with be the one real non-negotiable demand. His successor can sign the required treaties.

That's where Thirsk and Ahlverez and whoever else is willing to break from the jihad to save their country comes into the picture. The very survival of Dohlar as a nation is at stake. Millions of Siddarmarkans are screaming for blood, and the leaders of the army and navy have grave doubts about the cause they're serving, and even larger doubts about their ability to successfully defend their country. The eastern front between Dohlar and Siddarmark is bound to collapse under Hanth's reinforced assault sooner or later. Thirsk's fleet won't survive the "Battle" of Gorath, and by the time the battle arrives, Thirsk will be well aware of that.

I think Thirsk is already aware of that. His challenge has been to rebuild the Dohloran Navy into something that can face the ICN at sea, and he's likely well aware that the scarce resource is time. He needs to improve and expand the Dohloran Navy before Charis can divert significant ICN resources to deal with Dohlor, and everything he's heard courtesy of Bishop Maik will only tell him that Charis is building new ships even more powerful than the ones he'd have trouble taking now without a significant force advantage. If that new construction does come to call, he's screwed and he knows it.

He's not obligated to lead his fleet on a suicide mission, so when the KH VIIs appear, he can safely surrender his fleet and everyone will understand why and agree with his decision. (Except for the Inquisition, but nothing makes those guys happy except pulling the wings off of flies and torturing small, helpless animals.)

I'm afraid he'll have to take damage first. No one in Dohlor will understand what the KH VIIs are and can do, or will understand facing them is a suicide mission. They'll need to be taught a painful object lesson before Thirsk can order surrender. Given the history between Dohlor and Charis, his own people will want to fight, and will have to take nasty losses before they agree surrender is required.

Once Dohlar officially withdraws from the jihad, Thirsk technically hasn't committed treason or mutinied, since he was following the (eventual) lawful orders of his king. (Who is quite likely to be Ronald's son at that point, with Ronald either a Charisian prisoner for life, dead, or fled to Zion where Clyntahn will have him put to the Punishment as an example for any other rulers who might consider switching sides or declaring neutrality.)

If Rahnyld doesn't issue a royal order for Thirsk to have his Navy commit suicide, he's not committing mutiny or treason if he orders his navy to surrender honorably after taking losses facing an overwhelming enemy. But I'm afraid his navy will have to take its lumps first. He can't simply surrender when the KH VIIs appear, even if Merlin hastold him what he'll be facing. How does he justify it? Announce "Seijin Merlin appeared in my townhouse and showed me what the ICN had up it's sleeve"?

And I don't see Rahnyld being quite stupid enough to seek sanctuary in Zion, even if he could be sure he could get there. I'd say his days are numbered.
_______
Dennis

I think RFC is modeling the Inquisition after the KGB Third Directorate which was in charge of the political reliability of the Soviet military. They could issue and countermanded orders if the KGB officer felt it was politically expedient to do so, and with a very large threat, namely the arrest and up to and including the execution of the offenders entire family including Parents Spouse Children and in extreme cases Siblings and their families. Remember Clyntahn orders to Rayno about Jariss and Kholmahns relatives.

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Re: ATST Snippet #1
by DMcCunney » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:27 pm
DMcCunney Captain of the List Posts: 453 Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:49 am	Randomiser wrote:NO way South Harchong is going to allow trade with a neutral Dohlar. SH are part of the most fanatically Temple Loyalist country on Safehold. So that idea is out. That assumes South Harchong continues to be part of the Harchong Empire. With the right sort of stresses, they might just secede. They are already depicted as being where most of the manufacturing and trading houses are, so there's likely a large and growing cultural gulf between them and the North. North Harchong aristocrats make Desnairain great nobles look liberal and progressive, and look down upon a lot of what South Harchong does to make a living, and I strongly suspect a lot of South Harchong resents it. The future of the RDN fleet - the surviving ships will be joining the ICN as with every other defeated fleet we have seen. Why ever not? Because the other defeated fleets in question belonged to realms that are now part of the Empire. I do not see Charis adding Dohlor to the fold. Dohlor wouldn't want to be added, and Charis doesn't need to add them to accomplish their aims. The ICN still has plenty of use for wooden sailing ships and resource problems about building enough of everything needed for the war. The only exceptions are where territories have become part of the EOC. For reasons posted by others that seems unlikely. You don't leave an active, organised, potentially hostile fleet behind you. You do if you have successfully negotiated a binding treaty with a former opponent that states they are a former opponent, and their navy will not be used against you. If the treaty comes about as part of an object lesson in what happens if they try, said treaty is is more likely to be honored. Bishop Maik is a serious anomaly and may become a moral problem for Charis. I've never really understood how someone as seemingly reasonable as him got appointed to or has been allowed to remain in a post as sensitive as Intendant to the RDN. Clyntahn must have personally approved him after all. I'd guess Maik was a sworn member of the Inquisition before Clyntahn got elected Grand Inquisitor, and had the rank, local knowledge, and contacts to be a fit for the job. Clyntahn would have no reason at the time to suspect Maik. His ego will lead him to assume that all Inquisitors took vows to obey the Grand Inquisitor, and as he is now Grand Inquisitor, they will simply do as he says. That assumption isn't as solid as it used to be (witness the comments made in other volumes about Rayno leading a drive to recruit additional inquisitors, who will likely get selected on the basis of being fanatic and willing to do whatever Clyntahn tells them to.) I suppose one solution would be that Maik is just more subtle than the other intendants, managing and manipulating Thirsk by appearing sympathetic, while concealing his real views; he has never actually done anything contrary to the church's real interests after all. But there isn't any textev at all for that viewpoint as far as I can see. None whatever. There have been hints he doesn't agree with Clyntahn, but can't come out and say so. He's been doing an effective job of shielding Thirsk from Clyntahn, and has to be aware that will only make Clyntahn suspicious of him Edit - On Thirsk's options/decisions - He takes his oath to King Ranahld seriously. However, if the King is not acting as a free agent in the interests of Dohlar but is clearly under coercion from the Inquisition in giving certain orders, what action does an oath to Ranahld require? Why Rahnyld gives an order will be a matter of speculation, and largely irrelevant. "He's the King. He gave an order. We obey it." Rahnyld has been depicted as being capable of giving disastrous orders from drunken stupidity, without the Inquisition prodding him. Why should doing so because the Inquisition said to absolve Thirsk or others of the requirement to obey their oaths, when it would be a disaster for Dohlor either way? But how Charis will treat Maik is an interesting question. Cayleb and Sharleyan have sentenced sworn members of the Inquisition to death, but Archbishop Michael has stated they will be allowed to formally resign their posts as Inquisitors. They may still face trial for offenses they committed while they still were Inquisitors, but they would be granted that trial. If Dohlor signs a treaty with Charis, and kicks out the Inquisition, Maik will have an opportunity to leave the service of the Inquisition. Charis might feel compelled to try him, but I'm unaware of any actions he's taken that Charis would consider offenses to be punished, and I assume Thirsk would be his strong supporter. He was a sworn member of the Inquisition before Clyntahn took office. Not his fault his current ultimate superior is a homicidal psychotic. (And I've no idea whether things will break that way, but I suspect Bishop Maik and Archbishop Michael would get along fine, and Maik could be of great service either as a new member of the Church of Charis, or as a reformer in sympathy with the Church of Charis's view trying to bring reform to Mother Church.) ______ Dennis
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Re: ATST Snippet #1

by DMcCunney » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:27 pm

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Randomiser wrote:NO way South Harchong is going to allow trade with a neutral Dohlar. SH are part of the most fanatically Temple Loyalist country on Safehold. So that idea is out.

That assumes South Harchong continues to be part of the Harchong Empire. With the right sort of stresses, they might just secede. They are already depicted as being where most of the manufacturing and trading houses are, so there's likely a large and growing cultural gulf between them and the North. North Harchong aristocrats make Desnairain great nobles look liberal and progressive, and look down upon a lot of what South Harchong does to make a living, and I strongly suspect a lot of South Harchong resents it.

The future of the RDN fleet - the surviving ships will be joining the ICN as with every other defeated fleet we have seen. Why ever not?

Because the other defeated fleets in question belonged to realms that are now part of the Empire. I do not see Charis adding Dohlor to the fold. Dohlor wouldn't want to be added, and Charis doesn't need to add them to accomplish their aims.

The ICN still has plenty of use for wooden sailing ships and resource problems about building enough of everything needed for the war. The only exceptions are where territories have become part of the EOC. For reasons posted by others that seems unlikely. You don't leave an active, organised, potentially hostile fleet behind you.

You do if you have successfully negotiated a binding treaty with a former opponent that states they are a former opponent, and their navy will not be used against you. If the treaty comes about as part of an object lesson in what happens if they try, said treaty is is more likely to be honored.

Bishop Maik is a serious anomaly and may become a moral problem for Charis. I've never really understood how someone as seemingly reasonable as him got appointed to or has been allowed to remain in a post as sensitive as Intendant to the RDN. Clyntahn must have personally approved him after all.

I'd guess Maik was a sworn member of the Inquisition before Clyntahn got elected Grand Inquisitor, and had the rank, local knowledge, and contacts to be a fit for the job. Clyntahn would have no reason at the time to suspect Maik. His ego will lead him to assume that all Inquisitors took vows to obey the Grand Inquisitor, and as he is now Grand Inquisitor, they will simply do as he says. That assumption isn't as solid as it used to be (witness the comments made in other volumes about Rayno leading a drive to recruit additional inquisitors, who will likely get selected on the basis of being fanatic and willing to do whatever Clyntahn tells them to.)

I suppose one solution would be that Maik is just more subtle than the other intendants, managing and manipulating Thirsk by appearing sympathetic, while concealing his real views; he has never actually done anything contrary to the church's real interests after all. But there isn't any textev at all for that viewpoint as far as I can see.

None whatever. There have been hints he doesn't agree with Clyntahn, but can't come out and say so. He's been doing an effective job of shielding Thirsk from Clyntahn, and has to be aware that will only make Clyntahn suspicious of him

Edit - On Thirsk's options/decisions - He takes his oath to King Ranahld seriously. However, if the King is not acting as a free agent in the interests of Dohlar but is clearly under coercion from the Inquisition in giving certain orders, what action does an oath to Ranahld require?

Why Rahnyld gives an order will be a matter of speculation, and largely irrelevant. "He's the King. He gave an order. We obey it."

Rahnyld has been depicted as being capable of giving disastrous orders from drunken stupidity, without the Inquisition prodding him. Why should doing so because the Inquisition said to absolve Thirsk or others of the requirement to obey their oaths, when it would be a disaster for Dohlor either way?

But how Charis will treat Maik is an interesting question. Cayleb and Sharleyan have sentenced sworn members of the Inquisition to death, but Archbishop Michael has stated they will be allowed to formally resign their posts as Inquisitors. They may still face trial for offenses they committed while they still were Inquisitors, but they would be granted that trial.

If Dohlor signs a treaty with Charis, and kicks out the Inquisition, Maik will have an opportunity to leave the service of the Inquisition. Charis might feel compelled to try him, but I'm unaware of any actions he's taken that Charis would consider offenses to be punished, and I assume Thirsk would be his strong supporter. He was a sworn member of the Inquisition before Clyntahn took office. Not his fault his current ultimate superior is a homicidal psychotic.

(And I've no idea whether things will break that way, but I suspect Bishop Maik and Archbishop Michael would get along fine, and Maik could be of great service either as a new member of the Church of Charis, or as a reformer in sympathy with the Church of Charis's view trying to bring reform to Mother Church.)
______
Dennis

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Re: ATST Snippet #1
by Peter2 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:06 pm
Peter2 Captain (Junior Grade) Posts: 371 Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:54 am	DMcCunney wrote: [snip] If Charis can can sign an equitable agreement with Dohlor, . . . [snip] There's a difference between signing anything and just leaving Dohlar alone to try and sort itself out. There could be a significant obstacle to a formal agreement between the EoC and Dohlar, namely that the EoC is allied with Siddarmark. I know that Desnairian soldiers have brutalised substantial areas of Siddarmark, but I cannot remember how much damage Dohlaran troops have done to that country and its citizens. If a lot, then Siddarmark is not going to appreciate its main ally not helping with its perfectly justified quarrel with with King Raynald and his armies. Don't forget that Siddarmark is a democracy, the people have a voice, and the rulers had better not forget that. It's going to need tact, diplomacy, and a humungous amount of very skillful fast talking to put over the point that the enemy is the Go4 and their minions, not the states that have been dragooned into supporting them. And even so, I don't expect any any number of words or any amount of diplomatic oil to convince a man whose wife and daughters have been raped and murdered, or a woman whose husband and sons have been subjected to the Judgement of Schueler. A lot of them will want blood, and I for one can see where they're coming from. IMO, if push comes to shove, then the EoC would do best not to risk its ties with Siddarmark. Charis has a lot more in common with them than with any other of the mainland states. Whatever happens, the repercussions of Clyntahn's attack of bile are going to reverberate for many many years. In the real world, it would take centuries to reach the point of "happy ever after". .
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Re: ATST Snippet #1

by Peter2 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:06 pm

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Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:54 am

DMcCunney wrote:

[snip]

If Charis can can sign an equitable agreement with Dohlor, . . .

[snip]

There's a difference between signing anything and just leaving Dohlar alone to try and sort itself out.

There could be a significant obstacle to a formal agreement between the EoC and Dohlar, namely that the EoC is allied with Siddarmark. I know that Desnairian soldiers have brutalised substantial areas of Siddarmark, but I cannot remember how much damage Dohlaran troops have done to that country and its citizens. If a lot, then Siddarmark is not going to appreciate its main ally not helping with its perfectly justified quarrel with with King Raynald and his armies. Don't forget that Siddarmark is a democracy, the people have a voice, and the rulers had better not forget that.

It's going to need tact, diplomacy, and a humungous amount of very skillful fast talking to put over the point that the enemy is the Go4 and their minions, not the states that have been dragooned into supporting them. And even so, I don't expect any any number of words or any amount of diplomatic oil to convince a man whose wife and daughters have been raped and murdered, or a woman whose husband and sons have been subjected to the Judgement of Schueler. A lot of them will want blood, and I for one can see where they're coming from.

IMO, if push comes to shove, then the EoC would do best not to risk its ties with Siddarmark. Charis has a lot more in common with them than with any other of the mainland states.

Whatever happens, the repercussions of Clyntahn's attack of bile are going to reverberate for many many years. In the real world, it would take centuries to reach the point of "happy ever after".
.

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Re: ATST Snippet #1
by DMcCunney » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:12 pm
DMcCunney Captain of the List Posts: 453 Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:49 am	PeterZ wrote: DMcCunney wrote:snip * And speaking of which, a question I'd have for Dunstyn Oliver would be "If you wanted to make the fastest possible blue water capable steamship, how fast could it be?" A major issue the Empire faces is the fact that it spans a large area of ocean. Cayleb and Sharleyan already have the problem of transit times between Cheryath and Tellesburg to meet the constitution mandated requirement of having dual capital cities. Archbishop Michael will face even worse problems in traveling between the realms whose Church he is prelate of. I don't think the spare capacity exists to build them now, but I think fast VIP transports that can shrug off things like hurricanes and get senior Charisians to and from the various parts of the Empire in less time than it currently takes will be a definite need. Well Dennis, fast VIP transports could be something that other steel works could be working on. One suspects that her Highness Princess Irys in her capacity as Her Grace the Duchess of Darcos and daughter by marriage of the House of Ahrmahk will ask for and receive a significant portion of the gold backed zero coupon notes Cayleb will be issuing. Corisande has had a naval tradition and so having her nation develop their steel works into focusing on steam powered ocean going ships will be a natural. Irys is now also daughter-in-law of Sharleyan, and can also correctly use "Mother" as an honorific when addressing Sharleyan. And yes, I can see her doing that, and Corisande has a naval tradition. What it doesn't currently have is the ability to build ships like that. Corisandian yards can make contributions in producing standard wooden sailing vessels. They aren't up to iron steamers, and won't be for a while. Sure, acquiring the skill to make Housmanized steel armor will take time. Yet, fast steamers do not require thick face hardened steel. They can use good quality steel plate. Heck, I bet Her Highness would encourage her ship yards to bypass wood framing altogether. Also, with regions known as Black Water, one would suspect that oil is abundant and easily available in the Princedom. It doesn't have to be Housmanized steel armor, but it does have to be steel. Corisande can not currently produce that in volume, and His Grace the Duke of Delthak is straining every sinew simply to produce enough steel to meet Charis's needs. He has no surplus to send elsewhere. Bottom line is fast transports are coming soon but not soon enough to be seen before the this story arc concludes. That's my thought as well. I suspect people like Sir Dunstyn are well aware of the future need, but there are too many things in the pipeline before them to get to them. And Charis is managing thus far. Such things will be really useful after the Jihad and it must wage peace. I just noted Sir Dunstyn's comments in a meeting in Tellesburg about the King Hahrald's, and his estimate that they could hit 20 knots at full speed (though fuel consumption would soar.) Jaws dropped around the room, since that's almost three times what a galleon can do under good conditions. But that sort of speed would be handy for getting back and forth, and if Sir Dunstyn was asked to design a dedicated fast transport, I suspect he could add a few knots on top of that. ______ Dennis
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Re: ATST Snippet #1

by DMcCunney » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:12 pm

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Posts: 453
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PeterZ wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:snip

* And speaking of which, a question I'd have for Dunstyn Oliver would be "If you wanted to make the fastest possible blue water capable steamship, how fast could it be?" A major issue the Empire faces is the fact that it spans a large area of ocean. Cayleb and Sharleyan already have the problem of transit times between Cheryath and Tellesburg to meet the constitution mandated requirement of having dual capital cities. Archbishop Michael will face even worse problems in traveling between the realms whose Church he is prelate of. I don't think the spare capacity exists to build them now, but I think fast VIP transports that can shrug off things like hurricanes and get senior Charisians to and from the various parts of the Empire in less time than it currently takes will be a definite need.

Well Dennis, fast VIP transports could be something that other steel works could be working on. One suspects that her Highness Princess Irys in her capacity as Her Grace the Duchess of Darcos and daughter by marriage of the House of Ahrmahk will ask for and receive a significant portion of the gold backed zero coupon notes Cayleb will be issuing. Corisande has had a naval tradition and so having her nation develop their steel works into focusing on steam powered ocean going ships will be a natural.

Irys is now also daughter-in-law of Sharleyan, and can also correctly use "Mother" as an honorific when addressing Sharleyan.

And yes, I can see her doing that, and Corisande has a naval tradition. What it doesn't currently have is the ability to build ships like that. Corisandian yards can make contributions in producing standard wooden sailing vessels. They aren't up to iron steamers, and won't be for a while.

Sure, acquiring the skill to make Housmanized steel armor will take time. Yet, fast steamers do not require thick face hardened steel. They can use good quality steel plate. Heck, I bet Her Highness would encourage her ship yards to bypass wood framing altogether. Also, with regions known as Black Water, one would suspect that oil is abundant and easily available in the Princedom.

It doesn't have to be Housmanized steel armor, but it does have to be steel. Corisande can not currently produce that in volume, and His Grace the Duke of Delthak is straining every sinew simply to produce enough steel to meet Charis's needs. He has no surplus to send elsewhere.

Bottom line is fast transports are coming soon but not soon enough to be seen before the this story arc concludes.

That's my thought as well. I suspect people like Sir Dunstyn are well aware of the future need, but there are too many things in the pipeline before them to get to them. And Charis is managing thus far. Such things will be really useful after the Jihad and it must wage peace.

I just noted Sir Dunstyn's comments in a meeting in Tellesburg about the King Hahrald's, and his estimate that they could hit 20 knots at full speed (though fuel consumption would soar.) Jaws dropped around the room, since that's almost three times what a galleon can do under good conditions. But that sort of speed would be handy for getting back and forth, and if Sir Dunstyn was asked to design a dedicated fast transport, I suspect he could add a few knots on top of that.
______
Dennis

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Re: ATST Snippet #1
by DrakBibliophile » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:38 pm
DrakBibliophile Admiral Posts: 2311 Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:54 pm Location: East Central Illinois	IMO Thirsk had been in that "the dark drunk soul destroying funk" because the family he had "sacrificed his honor for" were killed anyway. Now Merlin not only tells him that his family is alive but tells him that Cayleb won't threaten his honor but that he is free to do "what his honor demands". Now Thirsk's problem is figuring out "how to do what his honor demands" as well as figuring out "how to explain his renewed spirit" to his friends. Joat42 wrote:Finally! Thanks RFC! And, I'm not sure digging is the best way to get out of a hole! --- Regarding Thirsk, I'm wondering how he will act now when he knows that his family is alive. He can't just suddenly turn around from the dark drunk soul destroying funk he has been in. It's going to be interesting to see how he handles it. Does he tell Maik (which I find improbable)? * Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile) * Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile] *
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Re: ATST Snippet #1

by DrakBibliophile » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:38 pm

DrakBibliophile
Admiral

Posts: 2311
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: East Central Illinois

IMO Thirsk had been in that "the dark drunk soul destroying funk" because the family he had "sacrificed his honor for" were killed anyway.

Now Merlin not only tells him that his family is alive but tells him that Cayleb won't threaten his honor but that he is free to do "what his honor demands".

Now Thirsk's problem is figuring out "how to do what his honor demands" as well as figuring out "how to explain his renewed spirit" to his friends.

Joat42 wrote:Finally! Thanks RFC!

And, I'm not sure digging is the best way to get out of a hole!

---

Regarding Thirsk, I'm wondering how he will act now when he knows that his family is alive. He can't just suddenly turn around from the dark drunk soul destroying funk he has been in. It's going to be interesting to see how he handles it. Does he tell Maik (which I find improbable)?

*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*

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Re: ATST Snippet #1
by DrakBibliophile » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:58 pm
DrakBibliophile Admiral Posts: 2311 Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:54 pm Location: East Central Illinois	On Bishop Maik, I suspect that the Good Bishop has powerful friends within the Church families so that prior to the destruction of the Circle, Clyntahn basically was forced (by those friends) to put Bishop Maik in that job. While Clyntahn is in a stronger position (within the Church) currently, Maik is senior enough that Clyntahn can't replace him without more reasons that Maik has given him. After all Bishop Maik hasn't publicly disobeyed Clyntahn, just politely disagreed with his "far-off" superior. Randomiser wrote:Yay Snippets! I had stopped visiting the forum regularly so just found it. Random thoughts I think some posters are going a bit overboard with their own ideas and disregarding both general and specific background. NO way South Harchong is going to allow trade with a neutral Dohlar. SH are part of the most fanatically Temple Loyalist country on Safehold. So that idea is out. The future of the RDN fleet - the surviving ships will be joining the ICN as with every other defeated fleet we have seen. Why ever not? The ICN still has plenty of use for wooden sailing ships and resource problems about building enough of everything needed for the war. The only exceptions are where territories have become part of the EOC. For reasons posted by others that seems unlikely. You don't leave an active, organised, potentially hostile fleet behind you. Bishop Maik is a serious anomaly and may become a moral problem for Charis. I've never really understood how someone as seemingly reasonable as him got appointed to or has been allowed to remain in a post as sensitive as Intendant to the RDN. Clyntahn must have personally approved him after all. I suppose one solution would be that Maik is just more subtle than the other intendants, managing and manipulating Thirsk by appearing sympathetic, while concealing his real views; he has never actually done anything contrary to the church's real interests after all. But there isn't any textev at all for that viewpoint as far as I can see. Edit - On Thirsk's options/decisions - He takes his oath to King Ranahld seriously. However, if the King is not acting as a free agent in the interests of Dohlar but is clearly under coercion from the Inquisition in giving certain orders, what action does an oath to Ranahld require? I think the interview with Thirsk is really well done, and the irony of the freedom to do whatever he thinks is right being the 'deadliest gift of all' for Thirsk is just wonderful. * Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile) * Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile] *
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Re: ATST Snippet #1

by DrakBibliophile » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:58 pm

DrakBibliophile
Admiral

Posts: 2311
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: East Central Illinois

On Bishop Maik, I suspect that the Good Bishop has powerful friends within the Church families so that prior to the destruction of the Circle, Clyntahn basically was forced (by those friends) to put Bishop Maik in that job.

While Clyntahn is in a stronger position (within the Church) currently, Maik is senior enough that Clyntahn can't replace him without more reasons that Maik has given him.

After all Bishop Maik hasn't publicly disobeyed Clyntahn, just politely disagreed with his "far-off" superior.

Randomiser wrote:Yay Snippets! I had stopped visiting the forum regularly so just found it.

Random thoughts

I think some posters are going a bit overboard with their own ideas and disregarding both general and specific background.

NO way South Harchong is going to allow trade with a neutral Dohlar. SH are part of the most fanatically Temple Loyalist country on Safehold. So that idea is out.

The future of the RDN fleet - the surviving ships will be joining the ICN as with every other defeated fleet we have seen. Why ever not? The ICN still has plenty of use for wooden sailing ships and resource problems about building enough of everything needed for the war. The only exceptions are where territories have become part of the EOC. For reasons posted by others that seems unlikely. You don't leave an active, organised, potentially hostile fleet behind you.

Bishop Maik is a serious anomaly and may become a moral problem for Charis. I've never really understood how someone as seemingly reasonable as him got appointed to or has been allowed to remain in a post as sensitive as Intendant to the RDN. Clyntahn must have personally approved him after all. I suppose one solution would be that Maik is just more subtle than the other intendants, managing and manipulating Thirsk by appearing sympathetic, while concealing his real views; he has never actually done anything contrary to the church's real interests after all. But there isn't any textev at all for that viewpoint as far as I can see.

Edit - On Thirsk's options/decisions - He takes his oath to King Ranahld seriously. However, if the King is not acting as a free agent in the interests of Dohlar but is clearly under coercion from the Inquisition in giving certain orders, what action does an oath to Ranahld require?

I think the interview with Thirsk is really well done, and the irony of the freedom to do whatever he thinks is right being the 'deadliest gift of all' for Thirsk is just wonderful.

*
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*

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Re: ATST Snippet #1
by n7axw » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:01 pm
n7axw Fleet Admiral Posts: 5997 Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm Location: Viborg, SD	Gracious, you guys do long posts... I'm not sure I am ready to scapegoat Rahnyld... Abdiction would do. He doesn't really want the job of being king anyway. The best way to deal with Dohlar is make friends. I do think that reparations for turning over Manthyr and his people as well as the survivors of the Battle of the Narrows. This would include compensation to the victims families. As we consider justice for what happened in Dohlar, or for that matter Delferak, we have to remember that before Charis happened by, what we had on Safehold was a world wide theocracy. We know from textev that Zhames had no desire for a war with Charis. But we also know that it didn't occur to him to protest or say no to Zion or the inquisitors when it it came time to close the port at Feryad or confiscate Charisian ships. Zion's sayso was the law. Even kings retained their thrones with Zion's permission. For tht matter Siddarmark found it neccessary to undermine the order rather than openly defying it. So when the order to turn over the prisoners came to Dohlar, with the exception of Thirsk who protested the affront to his honor, everybody assumed that they were bound to obey those orders. After all, that's how it had always been. Zion's authority had always been a religious and moral imperative. That is how it had been for Charis too until the Go4 launched the fleets to attack Charis and burn their homes down around their heads. That broke the imperative for Charis just as the SoS broke it for Siddarmark. Considering all of this, I would agree that there still has to be a penalty for turning those prisoners over. But I think it should be financial rather than vengeance. True justice for the fate of the prisoners must rest where the actual effective authority for making the decision about that rested. At that time, the authority rested in Zion. That is where Charis must seek justice. Don - When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: ATST Snippet #1

by n7axw » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:01 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Gracious, you guys do long posts... :lol:

I'm not sure I am ready to scapegoat Rahnyld... Abdiction would do. He doesn't really want the job of being king anyway.

The best way to deal with Dohlar is make friends. I do think that reparations for turning over Manthyr and his people as well as the survivors of the Battle of the Narrows. This would include compensation to the victims families.

As we consider justice for what happened in Dohlar, or for that matter Delferak, we have to remember that before Charis happened by, what we had on Safehold was a world wide theocracy. We know from textev that Zhames had no desire for a war with Charis. But we also know that it didn't occur to him to protest or say no to Zion or the inquisitors when it it came time to close the port at Feryad or confiscate Charisian ships. Zion's sayso was the law. Even kings retained their thrones with Zion's permission. For tht matter Siddarmark found it neccessary to undermine the order rather than openly defying it.

So when the order to turn over the prisoners came to Dohlar, with the exception of Thirsk who protested the affront to his honor, everybody assumed that they were bound to obey those orders. After all, that's how it had always been. Zion's authority had always been a religious and moral imperative.

That is how it had been for Charis too until the Go4 launched the fleets to attack Charis and burn their homes down around their heads. That broke the imperative for Charis just as the SoS broke it for Siddarmark.

Considering all of this, I would agree that there still has to be a penalty for turning those prisoners over. But I think it should be financial rather than vengeance. True justice for the fate of the prisoners must rest where the actual effective authority for making the decision about that rested. At that time, the authority rested in Zion. That is where Charis must seek justice.

Don

-

When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.

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