The fate of the Dawn Star and the Archangels

Weird Harold wrote:I think you're ignoring the Psychology -- i.e. anti-tech bias -- of anyone who would fit that description among "Langhorne's Faithful" (or Chihiro's cronies.)

There's no doubt that Chihiro or one of his cronies could have built a PICA before Hamilcar was disposed of, or even in some hidden tech repository under the Temple, but that would be like the Dalai Lama becoming a jet-set playboy -- possible, but highly improbable.

Yeah, and Stalin completely followed Lenin's vision of Communism, right?

Wait, no he didn't. We don't know enough about Chihiro to say he subscribed to Langhorne's EXACT vision or if he was only paying lip service to it to retain power, or something in between.

And of course, Chihiro didn't mind control everyone under him to follow his agenda either or else there wouldn't have been a War of the Fallen. There was quite a bit of cloak and dagger going on among the Command Crew even after you factored Shan-Wei's faction out of it.

But my original point wasn't to theorize who among them would want a PICA. My original point was that if the Command Crew or certain secret parties in them wanted to, they COULD reinvent PICA tech from scratch. And it wouldn't even have to be as good PICA tech as Nimue's with all the bells and whistles she has. It just has to be "good enough" to fool any non-tech-savvy Safeholdian they interacted with.

evilauthor wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:Tell me why Langhorne's "Loyalists" would need a PICA, or why it would occur to them to create one?

Because someone with sufficient authority and access to the "Angel's" industrial base (and possibly higher grade than OWL AIs) wanted one. The reasons WHY they would want one are damned near infinite, ranging from the purely selfish ("I want some version of me to live forever!") to vaguely altruistic ("I want to make sure everything goes to Plan... which is not necessarily someone else's Plan."). But as long as the guy who wants one has sufficient connections and enough time, reinventing PICAs should be doable.

Doable, possibly. But not in any short period of time.

The Loyalists were concerned with defeating the Fallen. They didn't need PICAs to do it, and wouldn't have had the time to dope out how to make them. Textual evidence is that the War was going badly for them in the initial phases, and they needed quick solutions. They did need tech in the form of "servitors", and people capable of using it. The first came from Hamilcar, or possible industrial modules in Zion. The second came by picking colonists who volunteered to help defeat the Fallen, and got partially re-educated, like Seijin Kohdy. He was able to rapidly learn to control his Hikousen because he was essentially remembering what he had done back on Earth.

Like I said, the Loyalists didn't need PICAs to win. Once they had won, the pressure was off. They were too busy consolidating their hold after their victory, and putting in place Chihiro's alterations to Langhorne's plan (like building the Temple, editing the Testimonies and adding the Books of Chihiro and Schueler to the Writ.) They had other things to think about besides "Hey, it would be neat to have a PICA!" (See my comment up thread about suggesting to David that Chihiro might have decided to record himself as he neared the end of his normal life, upload the recording into a PICA, and return in glory to Safehold at the thousand year in a virtually immortal body to rule forever. David said that if Chihiro could have done that, he wouldn't have waited. He'd have done it ASAP.)

Seriously though, given all we've seen of Federation technology what exactly makes duplicating/reinventing PICA tech difficult? It's certainly not copying the human mind to operate inside a computer. Faking human skin? Self repair ability?

I would think these things were old hat long before PICAs were invented; FX companies are always trying to fake human skin TODAY for example. Imagine what they could do with Fedtech nanotechnology.

"Old hat" is relative. It's old hat if you have the industrial base of Earth before the Gbaba destroyed it, with the engineering talent to design and build them, and detailed plans to work from.

It's very much not old hat if your starting point is a tiny remnant of humanity, hidden away on a terrestrial planet of a distant star system, your industrial base consists of an industrial module in a cave controlled by a former fire control computer, the engineering talent doesn't exist, and you have no plans to work from. You must essentially start from scratch in recreating the capability. That does not happen simply and quickly. (And having Hamilcar's arguably greater resources in manufacturing doesn't solve the problem of how to make one, especially absent a working model to observe.)

The two biggest challenges I think would be a) avoiding uncanny valley effect, and b) making the body "feel natural" to the copied mind running it while still giving it all the digital capabilities and features a digital entity would be accustomed to having.

If you can successfully recreate a last generation PICA, those engineering challenges have already been solved. The PICA Owl manufactured to hold Nimue was a smaller sized duplicate of Merlin's, and his provided those capabilities. Owl's problem was a strong likelihood that the sort of scan required to fully map Merlin's PICA down to the details of the molecular circuitry would render Merlin's PICA inoperable at worst, or remove Dr. Proctor's hack that disabled the ten day activation limit at best.

If Owl hadn't been able to at least partially scan Merlin, I don't think he could have created a second PICA at all, and even with that, I think Nahrman's personality in the VR unit provided critical supporting information that allowed Owl to infer what he couldn't safely observe directly. Without Nahrman's virtual presence, I again don't think Owl could have succeeded

Again, I think the former would be old hat. And the latter could be dispensed with if you're trying to make a PICA for some other purpose than "rich guy's toy".

I think you dramatically underestimate the difficulty involved. See above about the relativity of old hat.

(And speaking of Owl, I have to wonder if he hasn't rather exceeded what his designers thought his capability could be. I don't think full sentience and self-awareness was something they'd consider desirable in a tactical computer. But they never contemplated constant interaction with a VR personality, either, so we can likely blame Nahrman for the extent to which Owl woke up. )
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Dennis

Stormy wrote:It always seemed to me to be likely that the commend ship still exists.

As to PICAs, I thought that in many respects Owl in fact didn't have an example to reverse engineer. There was a section pre-virtual Nahrman where Owl tells Merlin that there was a high chance that a good enough look at Merlin's innards to be able to learn how to produce additional PICAs had a very high chance of disabling him, too high to make it worth trying, so they did not carry out the exam.
..snip..

The problem wasn't examining the PICA per se, the problem was fixing the high-speed port on Merlins PICA which stopped working because of the infinite time hack. The procedure involved shutting down the PICA while Owl troubleshooted the port and the chances of keeping Merlins persona intact (ie. keeping the PICA from resetting the personality) during that was very low.

A pure physical examination of the PICA apparently gave enough information of the engineering for Owl to draw up schematics for a new one. It was Nahrmans contribution that gave Owl the spark to be able to write working software for a PICA.

Weird Harold wrote:
I think you're ignoring the Psychology -- i.e. anti-tech bias -- of anyone who would fit that description among "Langhorne's Faithful" (or Chihiro's cronies.)

Basically, we didn't knew at all, what happened after Alexandria&colony administration destruction and which fraction came to power eventually. Thye victors of the War against the Fallen may evencually came to the conclusion that doctor Pei was right (or at least could probably be right), but/and decided to use the existed religious system instead of trying to salvage the original plan. After all, it's highly unlikely, that even if anti-Archangel fraction won the war, they would be able to just revert to the original plan. Too many time passed, too many things changed.

The most logical screnario, is that after all radicals eradicated each other during the War, the more reational heads came to power; and decide to wait and see. After all, they have the humanity to save, and while they MAY believe that Langhorne plan is the best they have, they MUST also think about "what if Pei was actually right, and the religious model would not hold"?

The most logical solution would just wait and see. A thousand years is just enough to see, who was right after all. And IF it became apparent that Pei was right and Langhorne was wrong - then the pre-planned "return of the Archangels" would allow to change the planetary situation and adapt the plan.

Of course, it's just spectulations about most logical way. And humans rarely act the most logical way) But it is pretty possible, that after Alexandria destruction, colony administration detonation and WaF, the number of radicals in command, ready to stand for the idea would be near zero. And more logical approach could be tested.

Dilandu wrote:..snip..
Of course, it's just speculations about most logical way. And humans rarely act the most logical way) But it is pretty possible, that after Alexandria destruction, colony administration detonation and WaF, the number of radicals in command, ready to stand for the idea would be near zero. And more logical approach could be tested.

I don't really agree with that conclusion based on the fact what they did with the inquisition and the added punishments - it's a clear indication that they fully intended to go ahead with the plan Langhorne had set in motion.

Joat42 wrote:I don't really agree with that conclusion based on the fact what they did with the inquisition and the added punishments - it's a clear indication that they fully intended to go ahead with the plan Langhorne had set in motion.

Because it became obvious that without this things the experiment would not be clear. After all, the planet was messed pretty hard by the War. They couldn't be sure that some "Demons" aren't hiding nearby, waiting until the dust would clear, or that they didn't left some "magical relics" that would activate a few centuries after and start to teach peoples something new. After all, it clearly would not be hard for some of "demons" to hide jury-rigged holographic projector, capable of projecting the "Archangel Langhorne holy image" that would declare that "the time is come for mortals to learn new things", ect. ect. ect. After all, we knew that Saint Zherneau&Co did just that!

Without some self-reparing&defense internal system, all Church reign could be potentially destroyed just by single unforseen event. And this would NOT be a clear experiment.

By adding Inquisition&Co, they make sure that the Church have at least some ability to cope with external deviations. Which means that the situation after delay period would clearly show: are the situation started to change INTERNALLY?

P.S. And this would means that they would be pretty mad at Merlin - that this tinhead break into the experiment and messed with the conditions so that results aren't clear anymore.

Since they had already established that the Archangels' mortal bodies would die, and it (may) have been established that Chihiro was perfectly comfortable using holograms, why would the surviving Archangels even need a PICA? Why not just have a virtual personality copy set on standby, with a hologram projector, so that in the event that the Key is used, the Rakurai strikes, or at the millennium, the personality and hologram would activate? It would even make sense canonically, having just the 'Spirit' of the Archangel return with the explanation that his mortal body had expired. I don't see why an anti-tech, neo-luddite faction would bother investing the research and development into remaking a PICA if they'd already got their hands on equipment that would, from their perspective, work better without sullying their hands with research.

ConnorM wrote:Since they had already established that the Archangels' mortal bodies would die, and it (may) have been established that Chihiro was perfectly comfortable using holograms, why would the surviving Archangels even need a PICA? Why not just have a virtual personality copy set on standby, with a hologram projector, so that in the event that the Key is used, the Rakurai strikes, or at the millennium, the personality and hologram would activate? It would even make sense canonically, having just the 'Spirit' of the Archangel return with the explanation that his mortal body had expired. I don't see why an anti-tech, neo-luddite faction would bother investing the research and development into remaking a PICA if they'd already got their hands on equipment that would, from their perspective, work better without sullying their hands with research.

Because like Merlin, sometimes you need to hit something and merely human muscle power just won't do. But at the same time, you don't want it obvious to the casual onlooker that the guy doing the hitting is anything "supernatural".

evilauthor wrote:
Because like Merlin, sometimes you need to hit something and merely human muscle power just won't do. But at the same time, you don't want it obvious to the casual onlooker that the guy doing the hitting is anything "supernatural".

Basically yes, at least some form of personal presence may be required in some situations.

Actually, it may not even be a full-capable PICA. It may be something simpler - android on distant telecontrol.

Dilandu wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:I think you're ignoring the Psychology -- i.e. anti-tech bias -- of anyone who would fit that description among "Langhorne's Faithful" (or Chihiro's cronies.)

Basically, we didn't knew at all, what happened after Alexandria&colony administration destruction and which fraction came to power eventually.

We do know. We know Chihiro was able to take over in the confusion following Langhorne and Bedards death, so his faction won. What we don't know is precisely whjat the various factions believed or wanted to see happen.

We know Langhorne was given orders on Earth before Operation Ark departed. We don't really know what they were, beyond "abjure technology for 300 years after the colony is established."

We've gotten the idea that Langhorne and Bedard planned to rewrite those orders, but we don't know precisely what they intended to do instead. Best guess is "alter the 300 year period in which the colony is supposed to abjure technology", but we don't know if the alteration was to abjure technology permanently.

We also know Chihiro had been moving to supplant Langhorne, and had apparently made changes to Langhorne's plans once he assumed control, but we don't know what Langhorne's plan really was, let alone what Chihiro's changes were.

The victors of the War against the Fallen may evencually came to the conclusion that doctor Pei was right (or at least could probably be right), but/and decided to use the existed religious system instead of trying to salvage the original plan. After all, it's highly unlikely, that even if anti-Archangel fraction won the war, they would be able to just revert to the original plan. Too many time passed, too many things changed.

Possible, but the evidence is against it. Current strong hints appear to be that "permanently abjure technology" is Chihiro's change.

The most logical screnario, is that after all radicals eradicated each other during the War, the more reational heads came to power; and decide to wait and see. After all, they have the humanity to save, and while they MAY believe that Langhorne plan is the best they have, they MUST also think about "what if Pei was actually right, and the religious model would not hold"?

Unfortunately, the evidence is that the radicals didn't eradicate each other. Chihiro's faction won, and he seems to have been the most radical of the bunch.

The most logical solution would just wait and see. A thousand years is just enough to see, who was right after all. And IF it became apparent that Pei was right and Langhorne was wrong - then the pre-planned "return of the Archangels" would allow to change the planetary situation and adapt the plan.

There is the unanswered question about just what is under the Temple, and what the "returned" Archangels might be wanting to see, and what they might do if it isn't to their liking.

The most likely thing whatever it is under the table could do is another Rakurai strike, since the OBS is still up there. But what would it strike at?

(Consider a scenario where the ICA has won on the battlefield, Clyntahn has been deposed by the Vicarate, and Duchairn opened surrender negotiations on behalf of Mother Church, which resulted in ICA troops occupying Zion. Would whatever it is call down a Rakurai strike on Zion if it detected unacceptable stuff there?)

I did have the notion that whatever was under the Temple might not do what we think it might. What if Langhorne/Bedard didn't want to permanently abjure technology, but did want to wait longer before it was rediscovered. With the Angels and Archangels departed to return to God as far as the colonists knew, exactly how does technology get re-established, especially in light of the Proscriptions of Jwo-Jeng?

I had the thought that it would be fun if whatever was under the Temple had been programmed to appear after a thousand years to announce the true history of Safehold, and start the ball rolling by rescinding the Proscriptions. It would be really hard for the Vicarate and the Inquisition to argue against it. (If Clyntahn were still around, an appearance like that might just trigger a coronary when he saw it.)

I don't think that's actually the case, but it is a fun thought.

Of course, it's just spectulations about most logical way. And humans rarely act the most logical way) But it is pretty possible, that after Alexandria destruction, colony administration detonation and WaF, the number of radicals in command, ready to stand for the idea would be near zero. And more logical approach could be tested.

This assumes the bug-ass crazies eliminated each other. See above. If they had, I don't think we'd have the present situation.
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Dennis