ATST Snippet #1

I have been waiting for this scene since the moment I finished HFQ (actually, pretty much the moment I met Thirsk), and it did not disappoint one iota.

I think there was a flaw in the font you used, though. It was all blurry for some reason.

Thank You for the snippet.
The forum will be fun again!!!!!

At the Sign of Triumph
are
the Shadow of Victory
and/or
The Ashes of Victory

Looks like the cold war will span the hiatus between the end of this book and the start of the next story arc.

I had thought things were headed that way and it looks like I was right.

Ahhh my day is complete, back to living on this site waiting for the master to elk out the precious words.

Kakai wrote:I'd just like to note that I actually did a happy dance upon seeing this snippet. Yay! Thank you so very much for this!

I'd just like to note that I love this first chapter, and not just because it's the first snippet, this dialogue between Merlin and Thrisk is just really great all on its own (also, I'm pretty sure this resolves the matters discussed back and forth on the forum for the last few months, too...).

phillies wrote:Cleddyf is a sword, especially a falchion.

Gwyliwr is a watcher or viewer, in modern usage, especially of television. She seems to be a bit more active than the average couch potato, though.

Thank you!

Like you I did exactly the same thing

PeterZ wrote:

McGuiness wrote:So PeterZ, do you expect Thirsk to surrender his fleet in port, or will he obey the orders from Zion that I fully expect, to sally forth and stop the invading ICN fleet at all costs? If he refuses, which he'd have to do to be in Gorath to recommend surrender and use the fleet as a hammer against any officials who think he ought to be martyring the fleet at sea, he'd be committing mutiny.

snip

Let's consider Thirsk's duty and his conscience. He has admitted he believes Clyntahn is wrong but still has lingering doubts that the damage of fostering schism will exceed the damage of Clyntahn's excesses. I believe he will come down on surrendering but not joining active operations against the CoGA. He will neither support Clyntahn nor the Allies.

With that in mind, Thirsk will definitely surrender as soon as he sees the King Haraald's. He might test the Cities with his screw galleys, but he isn't so stupid to test the KH VIIs. In addition everyone is Dohlar will recognize the inevitable when they see those Charisian monsters.

Will that be mutiny? Maybe, but who cares at this point? Thirsk and Ahvarez are looking to salvage something... anything at all. They will surrender and try to keep the Inquisitors out of Charisian hands. They surrender and Charis refrains from flattening other port cities. I believe that Gorath will burn as a reprisal for the tortured POWs. Perhaps Gorath survives but the ICN gains a naval base real close to Gorath instead.

If in addition to those concession Charis allows commerce to continue with South Harchong and only South Harchong, I believe everyone in Dohlar will recognize just how generous Cayleb and Sharley are being.

So I guess Thirsk will live by the axiom "Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it Treason?"

You and I mostly agree about Thirsk and Dohlar. RFC has noted our joint enthusiasm for the ICN's visit to Gorath for some long-awaited payback, and we're probably about to see it. Thirsk's mission from this point on is to salvage as much of his country as he can, while avoiding coming into direct conflict with the church he holds dear - although he must have realized long ago that the church he loves and the CoGA as it exists parted ways long before he was born!

Let's keep in mind that Clyntahn has no military authority to issue orders to the army or navy, which Kaitswyrth should have taken into consideration!

So if Thirsk refuses to obey an order from Clyntahn or anyone in the Inquisition for his fleet to engage in a hopeless assault against the ICN when it arrives with KH VII battleships, he hasn't done anything wrong. Remember, he commands the Dohlaran Royal Navy. If King Ronald sends the same order, then Thirsk will have to examine his oath to the navy and his king. Do those oaths require him to sacrifice himself and his men on a mission that is nothing less than suicide? Did his king prevent his family from being seized as pawns by the Inquisition? Has his King acted with honor, or besmirched Thirsk's honor by turning his Charisian POWs over to the Inquisition - twice!

I'm sure that the ICN will give him plenty of warning about the new battleships that are coming by shelling several ports out of existence along the coast of the Gulf of Dohlar long before they arrive at Gorath. A somewhat shorter seijin than Merlin may show up unexpectedly to give Thirsk a detailed briefing of what his fleet will face, hoping to avoid undue bloodshed.

Cayleb and Sharley aren't usually bloodthirsty, and they understand that Thirsk did all he could to protect their captured seamen (which wasn't much) before Clyntahn ordered them delivered to Zion to be put to the Question and the Punishment. King Ronald's head will roll for that, and the royal palace may end up as rubble, as will any manufacturies of war materials in range of the ICN's guns. I doubt that the ICN will shell or burn the entire city, but there is the precedence of Ferayd. The ICN hung a dozen or so inquisitors and burned every building within a mile of the harbor in retribution for the murder of a few dozen Charisian civilians in the course of seizing of their ships. The survivors were sent to Zion to be put to the Question and the Punishment. Bad move...

In this case, the ICN is headed for Gorath in retribution for the death via the Punishment of several hundred Charisian POWs who surrendered to Thirsk in good faith, expecting to be treated according to the Laws of War. (Pre-jihad.) Their commander was Cayleb's flag captain at Armageddon Reef, and both Cayleb and Merlin were infuriated by the murder of their sailors and that there was nothing they could do to stop it. Time may have burned away some of the emotional intensity but not their thirst for justice. King Ronald recently turned a second batch of Charisian POWs over to the Inquisition, which were fortunately rescued. So perhaps the entire capital city of Dohlar will burn.

Cayleb and Sharley usually emphasize the importance of capturing hearts and minds, and they'll still need to deal with Dohlar after the war unless it becomes western Siddarmark, so I expect a reprisal at Gorath that falls somewhere between annihilation and the approach used at Ferayd and Iythria. They need to teach Dohlar a very pointed lesson: YOU DO NOT TURN CAPTURED ICN SAILORS OVER TO THE INQUISITION, AND YOU BASTARDS HAVE DONE IT TWICE!!! If they don't occasionally launch a reprisal out of scale to the atrocity their enemies have committed, their enemies won't respect the mailed fist inside their velvet glove. The Charisian approach is to only fight when you have to, but when you fight, defeat your enemy so thoroughly that they never want to face you again! (Ask Kaitswyrth!)

Perhaps a combination of Ferayd and Iythria - burn all the manufacturies of war materials, their supplies, and all their finished products. Burn the Dohlaran fleet, destroy the royal palace, and level every building within a predetermined distance from the harbor - and Gorath has a much larger harbor than Ferayd! Demand King Ronald's head on a pike, we can't forget that! (Thirsk is destined to serve on the regency council, after all!)

This may seem like a bit much, but considering that it isn't much more than was required at Iythria, and Ferayd lost every building within a mile of the harbor for the deaths of a few dozen civilians, and for sending the survivors to Zion to face the Question and the Punishment. In Gorath's case, Cayleb and Sharley are seeking justice for the horrific torture and murder of hundreds of Charisian seamen who surrendered honorably under the laws of war, which precluded such treatment!

King Ronald clearly didn't learn any lessons the first time he turned Charisian prisoners over to the Inquisition because the EoC hasn't managed to pound home a proper punishment yet, and now he's done it again!

I'm sure Cayleb and Sharley decided on an equitable punishment long ago, but since they're also trying to knock Dohlar out of the war, dealing them a massive blow is going be necessary, and they can't work with a snake like King Ronald.

Clyntahn doesn't have the authority to issue military orders to anyone but the Temple Guard who fall under his authority. Only King Ronald and the men he's designated to run the Navy can give Thirsk orders. Unfortunately, King Ronald has basically wet himself in his anxiety to do whatever the Inquisition wants, so Clyntahn has been quite smug that he can tell the RDN and the RDA what to do for years.

Remove King Ronald, and Clyntahn can rant, rave, and froth at the mouth all he wants, but unlike Kaitswyrth and a few other military leaders who were all too willing to listen to their intendants rather than their military leadership, Thirsk has no intention of obeying any orders that comes from the Inquisition, especially after they kidnapped his family! (Which is why he needs to immediately move to his flagship and stay there!)

That's where Thirsk and Ahlverez and whoever else is willing to break from the jihad to save their country comes into the picture. The very survival of Dohlar as a nation is at stake. Millions of Siddarmarkans are screaming for blood, and the leaders of the army and navy have grave doubts about the cause they're serving, and even larger doubts about their ability to successfully defend their country. The eastern front between Dohlar and Siddarmark is bound to collapse under Hanth's reinforced assault sooner or later. Thirsk's fleet won't survive the "Battle" of Gorath, and by the time the battle arrives, Thirsk will be well aware of that.

He's not obligated to lead his fleet on a suicide mission, so when the KH VIIs appear, he can safely surrender his fleet and everyone will understand why and agree with his decision. (Except for the Inquisition, but nothing makes those guys happy except pulling the wings off of flies and torturing small, helpless animals.) Once Dohlar officially withdraws from the jihad, Thirsk technically hasn't committed treason or mutinied, since he was following the (eventual) lawful orders of his king. (Who is quite likely to be Ronald's son at that point, with Ronald either a Charisian prisoner for life, dead, or fled to Zion where Clyntahn will have him put to the Punishment as an example for any other rulers who might consider switching sides or declaring neutrality.)

I agree that Thirsk and Ahlverez and a few others will try to cut the best deal possible to salvage Dohlar from the straits the jihad has placed it in. There will be concessions - like King Ronald stepping down (perhaps a head shorter!) and a Charisian approved regency council. The treaty is likely to include trade concessions, although I'd hesitate to allow oceanic trade with anyone until the jihad is over. It would be all too easy for ships from South Harchong to fly a Dohlaran flag while carrying supplies for the jihad. Trade with Siddarmark or the EoC? No problem, just stick to the canals and use Charisian merchants to haul your goods. But if a Dohlaran keel hits the water, before the war ends, sink it or seize the ship!

I agree that like his country, Thirsk is likely to remain neutral, although his hatred for the Inquisition and the Go4 runs deep. He's grateful to the EoC for saving his family, and Cayleb and Sharley have emphasized that he isn't indebted to them and that they want him to have his free will. What he wants is his family safe, his sailors safe, and the Inquisition out of his life and Mother Church!

The EoC already gave him his greatest desire, but it's going to require his help to save his sailors (although his fleet is probably toast no matter what) and Dohlar will have to throw off the yoke of the Inquisition if it decides to pull out of the jihad. Thirsk and the tens of thousands under his command can help with that, although I don't expect to see a Church of Dohlar emerge. I do expect widespread trials or expulsions of inquisitors, and that the clergy in Dohlar will ignore orders out of Zion until the Go4 are removed and the vicarate is purged. Any clergy who insist on following Clyntahn should be escorted to the border and told to find their own way back to Zion. (Bishop Executor Wylsynn Lainyr who told the fairy tale about the "kidnapping" of Irys and Daivyn comes to mind...)

Safehold would be a better place without the sociopaths that the Inquisition seems to attract. Dohlar and the Desnair need their own version of the "Nuremberg Trials." Siddarmark and the EoC don't because they shoot inquisitors on sight!

McGuiness,

Don't have any significant disagreements with you save your position on trade. Trade is the velvet glove in the steel gauntlet.

By allowing trade with South Harchong, Charis does two things; they limit the both the nationality of the merchies and the ports allowed to serve them and secondly this gives Dohlar a reward for being most like Charis. Incidentally, it also rewards the other nation most like Charis, South Harchong.

Allow Dohlaran flagged vessels to access the South Harchong ports but none other. If they are discovered anywhere near any proscribed ports, they are sunk. Remind Thirsk et all that there is a very good intel network that reports to Charisian forces. I suspect that only a rare few merchant captains will risk it. Very little risk there.

The secondary benefit is that South Harchong is given an incentive to separate from their Northern aristocratic cousins. Given the choice of continuing trade with someone and retaining their ports or having those Charisian metal monsters visiting regularly to flatten their ports and manufactories, their choice is pretty much made.

Effectively both Dohlar and South Harchong can begin trade in non-war materials with Charis. Reapers, steel tools, raw materials like steel-thistle silk and many other things all the participants need. The price for such trade is NOT supporting the jihad. Given what the KH VIIs can do to any polity that pisses Charis off, the choice is a fait accompli.

"And you don't believe for a moment that they are defying God's will," Merlin countered...

I think that what we have here is the tipping point for Thirsk, the thing that clarifies in his own mind what he has been struggling over and helps him toward resolution of his inner conflict. I would be surprised if things don't go differently for Thirsk from now on.

I look for a mutiny aboard Thirsk's fleet. The thing that will trigger it will be an attempt to send the survivors from the Prodigal Lass to Zion. Thirsk's seamen probably represent the strongest military force in and around Gorath at the moment. The army has been sent off to deal with Hanth.

As for Gorath paying a price over what happened to Manthyr and the others, there will be one, but it will be a measured consequence rather than unrestrained revenge. The real culprits are in Zion, after all. It is in Zion that Charis must find justice for its murdered seamen.

Don

-

McGuiness wrote:Let's keep in mind that Clyntahn has no military authority to issue orders to the army or navy, which Kaitswyrth should have taken into consideration!

Clyntahn and cronies had been leaning on the long standing tradition that secular realms cooperate when called upon by Mother Church. It's how he got Chisholm, Corisande, Emerald, Tarot, and Dohlor to combines their navies under Hector of Corisande's overall command to go and crush Charis. It wasn't till after their combined navies suffered a crushing defeat that the CoGA realized they needed military power not borrowed from secular supporters and began trying to create it.

So if Thirsk refuses to obey an order from Clyntahn or anyone in the Inquisition for his fleet to engage in a hopeless assault against the ICN when it arrives with KH VII battleships, he hasn't done anything wrong.

Legally, no. In practice it's another matter.

Remember, he commands the Dohlaran Royal Navy. If King Ronald sends the same order, then Thirsk will have to examine his oath to the navy and his king. Do those oaths require him to sacrifice himself and his men on a mission that is nothing less than suicide? Did his king prevent his family from being seized as pawns by the Inquisition? Has his King acted with honor, or besmirched Thirsk's honor by turning his Charisian POWs over to the Inquisition - twice!

The question is whether Ranhyld will issue that order if Clyntahn says to. He's been depicted as a man totally unfit for his position, who had already had theoretical discussions with his First Councilor about abdicating, and hasn't done so only because the next in succession isn't old enough to assume the throne under Dohlaran law.

It's possible he'll dither into effective catatonia if told to issue the order. There's no way he'll refuse, but he might just be paralyzed into doing nothing. That will present a pretty predicament for Clyntahn. What does he do? Try to have the Inquisition arrest King Rahnyld? Leaving aside the minor problem of who will do the arresting and take him into custody, actually trying might have unintended consequences in Dohlor. I doubt any senior Dohlorans have much respect for Rahnyld, but he is their King, and they take their oaths seriously. The Inquisition arresting Rahnyld for not ordering Thirk and his navy to commit suicide by sallying against the ICN won't go over well.

But the alternatives for Thirsk will be either sit tight in port, get his people off their ships and to shore, and watch the ICN destroy his fleet, or formally surrender and have his ships confiscated and his men taken into custody as POWs. He'll know Charis will treat them honorably, but it will really go against the grain.

If it comes to it, Thirsk will probably sally and take losses to defend Gorath, but order surrender at the point where any rational observer will agree that further combat will simply get every ship sunk and every crew member killed.

I suspect Charis will prefer to do as little damage as possible, and will settle for a point where they can tell the Dohloran government:

"This can stop. We want Rahnyld's head for turning over our honorably surrendered prisoners to the Inquisition to face the Punishment. Depose Rahnyld and let us hang him or do it yourselves, replace him with a new King or a Regency Council till his successor is old enough, and drop out the Jihad and sign a treaty of neutrality that you actually keep and we'll go away and leave you alone. If we have to come back, we won't stop with Rahnyld's head, and every senior member of your government will need to find a deep hole to hide in.

And while you're at it, given who got you into this mess, you might consider telling the Inquisition they are no longer welcome in Dohlor. If you want assistance in kicking them out with their tails between their legs, we'll be delighted to provide it..."

In this case, the ICN is headed for Gorath in retribution for the death via the Punishment of several hundred Charisian POWs who surrendered to Thirsk in good faith, expecting to be treated according to the Laws of War. (Pre-jihad.) Their commander was Cayleb's flag captain at Armageddon Reef, and both Cayleb and Merlin were infuriated by the murder of their sailors and that there was nothing they could do to stop it. Time may have burned away some of the emotional intensity but not their thirst for justice. King Ronald recently turned a second batch of Charisian POWs over to the Inquisition, which were fortunately rescued. So perhaps the entire capital city of Dohlar will burn.

I doubt it.

Consider Ferayd, where Charis's response the the Inquisition incited massacre of Charisian merchant ship personnel was to level the waterfront and everything within two miles of it, and hang the Inquisitors who incited it. But they took pains to avoid civilian casualties and collateral damage. The Delferakan military took losses trying to defend Ferayd, but that would be expected by everybody. It's the military's job to die defending their country and people.

I don't see Charis being more vicious in reprisals against Dohlor. I think Cayleb and Sharleyan's attitude will be the sort of thing Prince Nahrman might say. If asked, his advice is likely to be "Shoot the leaders! Don't kill the poor guys just following orders and fighting for their country and their cause if you don't have to. Kill the ones who gave them the orders."

Perhaps a combination of Ferayd and Iythria - burn all the manufacturies of war materials, their supplies, and all their finished products. Burn the Dohlaran fleet, destroy the royal palace, and level every building within a predetermined distance from the harbor - and Gorath has a much larger harbor than Ferayd! Demand King Ronald's head on a pike, we can't forget that! (Thirsk is destined to serve on the regency council, after all!)

I think Cayleb and Sharleyan will settle for Rahnyld's head on a pike outside his palace, and Dohlor knocked out of the Jihad with a declaration of neutrality and a permanent non-aggression treaty.

This may seem like a bit much, but considering that it isn't much more than was required at Iythria, and Ferayd lost every building within a mile of the harbor for the deaths of a few dozen civilians, and for sending the survivors to Zion to face the Question and the Punishment. In Gorath's case, Cayleb and Sharley are seeking justice for the horrific torture and murder of hundreds of Charisian seamen who surrendered honorably under the laws of war, which precluded such treatment!

And the people you take measures against are those who allowed it to occur. That's Rahnyld and possibly some of his senior ministers. It doesn't mean the people who just happen to live in Gorath.

I'm sure Cayleb and Sharley decided on an equitable punishment long ago, but since they're also trying to knock Dohlar out of the war, dealing them a massive blow is going be necessary, and they can't work with a snake like King Ronald.

Remove and execute him, and they don't have to. I think his head with be the one real non-negotiable demand. His successor can sign the required treaties.

That's where Thirsk and Ahlverez and whoever else is willing to break from the jihad to save their country comes into the picture. The very survival of Dohlar as a nation is at stake. Millions of Siddarmarkans are screaming for blood, and the leaders of the army and navy have grave doubts about the cause they're serving, and even larger doubts about their ability to successfully defend their country. The eastern front between Dohlar and Siddarmark is bound to collapse under Hanth's reinforced assault sooner or later. Thirsk's fleet won't survive the "Battle" of Gorath, and by the time the battle arrives, Thirsk will be well aware of that.

I think Thirsk is already aware of that. His challenge has been to rebuild the Dohloran Navy into something that can face the ICN at sea, and he's likely well aware that the scarce resource is time. He needs to improve and expand the Dohloran Navy before Charis can divert significant ICN resources to deal with Dohlor, and everything he's heard courtesy of Bishop Maik will only tell him that Charis is building new ships even more powerful than the ones he'd have trouble taking now without a significant force advantage. If that new construction does come to call, he's screwed and he knows it.

He's not obligated to lead his fleet on a suicide mission, so when the KH VIIs appear, he can safely surrender his fleet and everyone will understand why and agree with his decision. (Except for the Inquisition, but nothing makes those guys happy except pulling the wings off of flies and torturing small, helpless animals.)

I'm afraid he'll have to take damage first. No one in Dohlor will understand what the KH VIIs are and can do, or will understand facing them is a suicide mission. They'll need to be taught a painful object lesson before Thirsk can order surrender. Given the history between Dohlor and Charis, his own people will want to fight, and will have to take nasty losses before they agree surrender is required.

Once Dohlar officially withdraws from the jihad, Thirsk technically hasn't committed treason or mutinied, since he was following the (eventual) lawful orders of his king. (Who is quite likely to be Ronald's son at that point, with Ronald either a Charisian prisoner for life, dead, or fled to Zion where Clyntahn will have him put to the Punishment as an example for any other rulers who might consider switching sides or declaring neutrality.)

If Rahnyld doesn't issue a royal order for Thirsk to have his Navy commit suicide, he's not committing mutiny or treason if he orders his navy to surrender honorably after taking losses facing an overwhelming enemy. But I'm afraid his navy will have to take its lumps first. He can't simply surrender when the KH VIIs appear, even if Merlin hastold him what he'll be facing. How does he justify it? Announce "Seijin Merlin appeared in my townhouse and showed me what the ICN had up it's sleeve"?

And I don't see Rahnyld being quite stupid enough to seek sanctuary in Zion, even if he could be sure he could get there. I'd say his days are numbered.
_______
Dennis

PeterZ wrote:McGuiness,

Don't have any significant disagreements with you save your position on trade. Trade is the velvet glove in the steel gauntlet.

By allowing trade with South Harchong, Charis does two things; they limit the both the nationality of the merchies and the ports allowed to serve them and secondly this gives Dohlar a reward for being most like Charis. Incidentally, it also rewards the other nation most like Charis, South Harchong.

Allow Dohlaran flagged vessels to access the South Harchong ports but none other. If they are discovered anywhere near any proscribed ports, they are sunk. Remind Thirsk et all that there is a very good intel network that reports to Charisian forces. I suspect that only a rare few merchant captains will risk it. Very little risk there.

The secondary benefit is that South Harchong is given an incentive to separate from their Northern aristocratic cousins. Given the choice of continuing trade with someone and retaining their ports or having those Charisian metal monsters visiting regularly to flatten their ports and manufactories, their choice is pretty much made.

Effectively both Dohlar and South Harchong can begin trade in non-war materials with Charis. Reapers, steel tools, raw materials like steel-thistle silk and many other things all the participants need. The price for such trade is NOT supporting the jihad. Given what the KH VIIs can do to any polity that pisses Charis off, the choice is a fait accompli.

Excellent points, and I'd misunderstood the terms - I envisioned South Harchong being able to use its own ships to trade with Dohlar, not limiting trade to only Dohlaran vessels. It had slipped my mind that Dohlar has longed to replace Charis as the foremost shipping power in the Gulf of Dohlar, so allowing them to be the only other nation the allies allow to trade with South Harchong would be a step towards fulfilling that desire - until the Jihad ends and the Charisian merchants swarm in again. Plus it will provide jobs for the soon-to-be unemployed sailors of the Dohlaran Navy. (Those who aren't killed before Thirsk manages to surrender anyway...)

So does the ICN sink Thirsk's fleet, or strip off most of its guns and allow it to escort merchant convoys to and from South Harchong? Desnair and Dohlar hate each other, so Desnair would be thrilled build commerce raiders in the Gulf of Dohlar to attack Dohlaran shipping and keep up the appearance that they still support the Jihad. (If the ICN leveled everything that's been rebuilt at the ports of Geyra or Desnair (the capital city) every time a raider hit, they'd probably stop raiding real quick!

Those concessions would certainly serve as the velvet glove over the mailed fist - although that fist is still going to get used on Gorath! Probably not as drastically as at Ferayd, but at least as thoroughly as Iythria. Plus they'll either get King Ronald's abdication or his head on a pike!

Of course South Harchong needs to be on board with this before it would accept any Charisian goods. Perhaps the ICN will ask for some truce talks in a few ports in South Harchong under the guns of the KH VIIs before arriving at Gorath.

How do those Charisian goods reach Dohlar? I expect a treaty with Silkiah is in the cards, since that would cut the distance goods would need to travel drastically. At the moment there aren't a lot of Charisian merchants who would brave the gauntlet of Desnairan raiders to sail west to South Harchong, although they could always sail east past Chisholm and Corisande, which isn't much farther although the weather is nastier. Ask Irys and Daivyn...