Stupid Apollo Tricks

So, I was thinking about how to do ridiculous things to the SLN using a couple of destroyers and not much else.

We know that Rolands can limpet a fair number of missile pods to their hulls, and that they're stealthy enough that Haven has difficulty locating them when they're being stealthy, even when they know they're in-system.

We also know how scary C-fractional missile launches can be, and how poor Sollie fire control is at dealing with high speed intercepts. So, consider - what happens to an SLN detachment if you put a stealthed Roland somewhere close enough to do proper fire control, and use another one to dump a load of pods a light hour out or so at 0.8c? We know that light-speed control of Apollo is pretty damned effective, especially against the SLN, so the risk of an Eridani violation seems pretty low.

Why spend 500 missiles to kill an SD when you could catch it with it's wedge down and use far fewer, after all.

If the GA was going to move to unrestricted warfare against the SLN, it seems like they could take care of a huge amount of the standing forces with a pretty minimal force commitment, just by utilizing some of their advantages in ways that we haven't really seen in text yet.

In most of the confrontations thus far, the RMN has basically met force on force. But they're more advanced than the SLN in many ways, which could easily be used as force multipliers.

I'm willing to bet there's other ways to utilize said advantages that I haven't thought of - anyone else have any Stupid Apollo Tricks worth sharing?

caias wrote:I'm willing to bet there's other ways to utilize said advantages that I haven't thought of - anyone else have any Stupid Apollo Tricks worth sharing?

Your thread title brought to mind the adage, "If it's stupid and it works, it ain't stupid."


As Michelle Henke demonstrated in a sim, an Apollo brood has fantastic resolution as a high-speed recon system that can immediately attack if it sees something worth attacking.

PS: Your idea would work as well with Mk-23's or Mk16's as with Apollo. The only advantage would be the control-link multiplier of the ACM, but a Roland's normal control channels should be sufficient to control enough missiles for a surprise attack.

Or they could just use the sort of tactics Rozak used at the Battle of Torch. Where he had a few fairly modern cruisers to provide fire control. And an ammunition ship to dump pods. The difference is, the Rolands would have much better long range sensors and fire control than the ships Rozsak had at Torch. And the pods the ammunition ship would be dumping would contain much better missiles than the ones he was using.

Henry Brown wrote:Or they could just use the sort of tactics Rozak used at the Battle of Torch. Where he had a few fairly modern cruisers to provide fire control. And an ammunition ship to dump pods. The difference is, the Rolands would have much better long range sensors and fire control than the ships Rozsak had at Torch. And the pods the ammunition ship would be dumping would contain much better missiles than the ones he was using.

Which is also pretty much what Henke and Terekhov did at Spindle. Clearly that works. I was thinking of tricks we haven't seen yet. Like abusing the stealth advantage, and the fire control multiplication of Apollo.

Weird Harold wrote:
Your thread title brought to mind the adage, "If it's stupid and it works, it ain't stupid."

PS: Your idea would work as well with Mk-23's or Mk16's as with Apollo. The only advantage would be the control-link multiplier of the ACM, but a Roland's normal control channels should be sufficient to control enough missiles for a surprise attack.

I was aiming for "Stupid Pet Tricks", but your version works, too.

With regards to the point at hand, though, I was assuming a Roland has ~40 fire control channels (24 missles per salvo, and the 60% redundancy that the RMN seems to aim for), which would be a pretty small salvo, even in a sneak attack. 320 missiles (8*40) seems much more useful.

Henry Brown wrote:...The difference is, the Rolands would have much better long range sensors and fire control than the ships Rozsak had at Torch. ...

You may be right about the sensors, but I suspect they would have parity at least. The fire-control, however, is a clear win for Rozsak's Marksman-class cruisers. They are explicitly designed to have the fire-control capability of a Haven Sector SD(p?) in what can be passed off to SLN high command as a Light Cruiser.

They might not have the latest and greatest tweaks to Fire Control software that a Roland has but the hardware is going to be on a par and there's a LOT more of it.

caias wrote:With regards to the point at hand, though, I was assuming a Roland has ~40 fire control channels (24 missles per salvo, and the 60% redundancy that the RMN seems to aim for), which would be a pretty small salvo, even in a sneak attack. 320 missiles (8*40) seems much more useful.

320 missiles + surprise + c-fractional speeds == 40 dead SLN SDs. I don't think Apollo is really necessary because a Roland division wouldn't be dispatched against such odds with just an ammo ship or two full of Apollo pods. IF the GA needs to take out a system defended by 40 SDs (Mannerheim, anyone?) they are going to send an SD or two -- or at least a squadron of BCs (BCL or BCP, take your pick.)

Weird Harold wrote:You may be right about the sensors, but I suspect they would have parity at least. The fire-control, however, is a clear win for Rozsak's Marksman-class cruisers. They are explicitly designed to have the fire-control capability of a Haven Sector SD(p?) in what can be passed off to SLN high command as a Light Cruiser.

They might not have the latest and greatest tweaks to Fire Control software that a Roland has but the hardware is going to be on a par and there's a LOT more of it.

No they don't have the fire control capability of a Haven SD(P). I just double checked Torch of Freedom to be sure. Rozsak's cruisers were each controlling 60 missiles per salvo. Which is certainly not bad for any cruiser this side of a Sag-C. But nowhere near what an SD(P) could do.

Henry Brown wrote:No they don't have the fire control capability of a Haven SD(P). I just double checked Torch of Freedom to be sure. Rozsak's cruisers were each controlling 60 missiles per salvo. Which is certainly not bad for any cruiser this side of a Sag-C. But nowhere near what an SD(P) could do.

That's about what a first-Haven-Sector-war SD could do and probably a bit better than a SLN Scientist-class can do.

Weird Harold wrote:

Henry Brown wrote:No they don't have the fire control capability of a Haven SD(P). I just double checked Torch of Freedom to be sure. Rozsak's cruisers were each controlling 60 missiles per salvo. Which is certainly not bad for any cruiser this side of a Sag-C. But nowhere near what an SD(P) could do.

That's about what a first-Haven-Sector-war SD could do and probably a bit better than a SLN Scientist-class can do.

You sure about that? From what I can remember, first gen SD(P)s (Manticore or Haven) could control 100 or more missiles per salvo. 2nd gen SD(P)s can do in excess of 200 missiles. Though I think you are entirely correct that this figure is better than what a SL Scientist-class can do.

Henry Brown wrote:You sure about that? From what I can remember, first gen SD(P)s (Manticore or Haven) could control 100 or more missiles per salvo.

First-war SD, not SD(P). I put the (P?) because I wasn't sure just how much more fire control a Marksman-class had.

Weird Harold wrote:

Henry Brown wrote:You sure about that? From what I can remember, first gen SD(P)s (Manticore or Haven) could control 100 or more missiles per salvo.

First-war SD, not SD(P). I put the (P?) because I wasn't sure just how much more fire control a Marksman-class had.

Oh, that explains it. Yeah, 60 shipkiller control links would be about right for a pre-pod SD.