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The Temple Boys Who've Witnessed Some Truths | |
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by XofDallas » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:39 pm | |
XofDallas
Posts: 156
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Ok, this one may have been discussed before. It stems from the thought that a lot of people now have seen first-hand the restraint Charis has exercised during its campaigns. Others have witnessed direct lies on the part of the Church and the Inquisition in particular. Examples:
1. The platoon that learned a Scheulerite had shot their Lieutenant in the head from behind; 2. The men attempting to take Princess Irys at her lodging; 3. The men seeing Mabb work (those he didn't kill); 4. Those at Ferayd when the Charisans stormed the waterfront; These men have got to at least strongly suspect the Inquisition is lying about a lot of things. Yet, we've never seen or heard anything from them again, nor have we seen or heard anything about how they're being treated. After the Battle of Midway, the Japanese invaded a couple of the Aleutian Islands (originally, this portion of the operation was to be only a feint), and claimed a great victor to their people, while those defeated at Midway were actually quarantined and all information concerning them was blacked out as soon as they reached a Japanese-controlled port. I wonder what happened to these people. |
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Re: The Temple Boys Who've Witnessed Some Truths | |
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by PeterZ » Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:00 pm | |
PeterZ
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I don't believe that the inflection point will happen before the CoGA is exhausted. First the CoGA cannot continue to fight the Allies. I suspect that they can retain the ability to mount a ferocious defense, but lack the resources to launch a sustained offensive. Some sort of truce manifests.
During that time, the loyalists will have to reconcile their loss and their being preferred by God. The questions that arise during this cold war period will push the CoGA towards the inflection point of discarding the Inquisition in the curent form. |
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Re: The Temple Boys Who've Witnessed Some Truths | |
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by saber964 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:27 pm | |
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If you're referencing the IJN in the aftermath of Midway. All wounded survivors were sent to special hospitals overseen by the Kempi Tai (Japanese Military Secret Police) most serious cases were not released until 1944-5, lightly wounded were sent to farthest edges of the empire like Java and New Guinea. The rest were sent to the Solomon's and were never allowed rotation home. FYI the Kempi Tai were more brutal then the Gestapo (actually made the Gestapo look like Girl Scouts). E.g. while building the Yamato a single page of the plans went missing the Kempi Tai's investigation killed 195 of 200 ship designers and workers. The missing page turned up during the investigation stuck to another page but the Kempi Tai kept investigating anyway. |
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Re: The Temple Boys Who've Witnessed Some Truths | |
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by McGuiness » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:46 am | |
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Wow, and I thought the Inquisition was evil! On the other hand, the Kempi Tai didn't put people to the Question, or through the indescribable tortures of the Punishment of Schueler. All but one of the examples cited happened in the Kingdom of Delferahk, which for all we know is neutral in the jihad. The only exception is the men Dialydd Mabb didn't kill, who aren't likely to consider him merciful after seeing the inquisitors around them shot, or finding their commander's throats cut in the barracks in the morning. They undoubtedly find his brand of justice quite focused and are certainly relieved that he didn't target them when he could have, but dead is dead, and they saw the gory results. There are tens of thousands of wounded and captured POWs in the allies' hands from the Battle of the Kyplyngyr, and over thirty thousand were captured in LAMA. Those Dohlaran (and some Desnairan) survivors have seen firsthand the mercy shown by the "heretics," who cared for them as if they were their own troops, following to the letter the Book and spirit of Pasquale. Those POWs also realize that if their roles had been reversed, the men (and possibly women) who cared for them would have been tortured to death! In some instances the POWs saw the Charisians stop Siddarmarkans from massacring them. They literally saw the allies facing off against each other with the Charisians arguing to spare their lives even though the CoGA's troops had invaded Siddarmark, pillaged and massacred its citizens, occupied its territory, and fought and killed many of those same Charisian troops. Who is on God's side indeed? It's too bad that Safehold doesn't seem to have the concept of parole - but even it does, parole isn't honored during a jihad, since no promise made to a heretic is considered binding. Otherwise the allies could return the Dohlaran survivors to Ahlverez with the assurance that that they would never take up arms against the allies again. The former POW's accounts of the excellent medical care they received, the full rations, and their repatriation would spread like wildfire! How could the heretics who fight on the side of Shan-Wei be so merciful when Mother Church would torture and execute every one of them, and they know it? Which side is truly on the side of God? How long will it take soldiers to begin to feel ashamed for the atrocities being committed in Siddarmark, especially in the prison camps? Most of Safehold already knows the camps exist, because Mab mentioned them in his letter to Clyntahn, which was posted across the planet by OWL in his broadsheets. Details about the camps and what goes on there will undoubtedly appear in OWL's broadsheets as soon as the first camp is "discovered" and a reasonable amount of time for the information to disseminate to the nearest enemy-held territory passes by, unless a seijin steps in to speed up the flow of information. From there it will spread throughout Safehold. The populace will doubtlessly feel very proud that so many civilians, most of them completely innocent of the charges of heresy leveled against them, and many of them staunch Temple Loyalists, have been incarcerated, starved, tortured, murdered, and often worked to death. And if an inquisitor tried to intervene, he was put to the Punishment! Desnair is already out of the war. How will the nobility react when tens of thousands of their fathers, husbands, and sons who they thought were dead, but were merely wounded, starving, or captured, are returned to them hale and hearty? (Ignoring the nasty fights for succession that are going to result because their heirs have already inherited their positions!) Allowing POWs to return home would be a nightmare for Clyntahn and might gut support for the jihad. He can't order the execution of all POWs - the armies involved would ignore the order and probably kill the inquisitor(s) who delivered the ultimatum. That would result in Dohlar and Desnair withdrawing from the jihad without the EoC firing a shot. Clyntahn isn't that stupid, but he might order the internment of returning POWs. (Which would likely be ignored as well!) We have textev from LaMA that Desnair is already out of the war, so the EoC could probably return their POWs now without having to worry about facing them across the field of battle again. Perhaps OWL's broadsheets could list the names of the Dohlaran POWs on the walls of their hometowns! That would cause their families to demand that the current Dohlaran government do something to get their sons, husbands, and fathers back, and will turn tens of thousands of civilians against the jihad. Dangling the return of all Dohlaran POWs will be a valuable bargaining chip once the KH VIIs arrive for their long-destined visit to Gorath, and Dohlar's new government sues for peace... (Ok, I skipped a few steps there, but we can read the writing on the wall. King Ronald has to go, and Gorath may become a smoking crater to drive home the point that YOU DO NOT TURN CHARISIAN POWs OVER TO THE INQUISITION, AND YOU BASTARDS DID IT TWICE!) Now back to our regularly scheduled analysis... As Cayleb has noted, kindness is a weapon that Clyntahn doesn't understand, and repatriating the Dohlaran and Desnairan POWs could turn two countries against the Inquisition, against the jihad, and against the Go4. If the EoC can figure out a way to repatriate the POWs it holds without them being slaughtered, interred, or sent back to the front to fight again, doing so would gut the jihad and might remove Dohlar and Desnair from the war once and for all! Of course Harchong won't want their POWs back, which we'll soon find out! Well, not exactly soon, but probably during ATSOT... "Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear. |
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Re: The Temple Boys Who've Witnessed Some Truths | |
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by Castenea » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:08 am | |
Castenea
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I will disagree with you for a simple reason, Clyntahn, will fight as long as he lives and will expend the lives of anyone his inquisitors can force to fight for him. During WWII the allies said they would only accept unconditional surrender, in actual fact, of the Axis powers, only Germany was forced into true unconditional surrender. Italy switched sides in 1944, with a coup, occupation by Germany, and civil war to keep Italian politic confused into 1946. Finland has very little written about its fate in popular English Literature, probably because it negotiated with the Soviet Union. Any more than a cursory look at the fate of Japan between 1945 and 1950 shows that there was a lot of behind the scenes negotiating going on. Desnair, Dohlar, and the Border states will have fates like those of Italy and Finland, while Harchong's fate is likely to be similar the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1918. The Temple Lands are likely to see a fate like that of Germany in 1945, although 1918 is also possible. |
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Re: The Temple Boys Who've Witnessed Some Truths | |
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by phillies » Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:50 am | |
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The Japanese Navy neglected to mention to the Japanese Army that they had lost the Battle of Midway up until iirc 1944. It around this point that the Japanese Prime Minister lost a vote of confidence in parliament and was replaced. |
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Re: The Temple Boys Who've Witnessed Some Truths | |
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by PeterZ » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:39 pm | |
PeterZ
Posts: 6432
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I envision Clyntahn dead and the Allies facing a prospect similar to the US defeating Japan without an A-bomb. The cost in lives would appear staggeringly high after Clyntah's SoS. The Lord Protector would be very tempted to rebuild his national infrastructure to neigh Charisian levels THEN negotiate for the complete dismantling of the Inquisition.
A Duchairn led CoGA may well appear a reasonable entity to negotiate something short of a total restructure of the CoGA. They can always resume hostilities should negotiation stall. In the mean time Siddermark launches an industrialization program on a scale that dwarfs what Charis has accomplished. The sheer size of Siddermark would guarantee that.
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Re: The Temple Boys Who've Witnessed Some Truths | |
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by saber964 » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:26 pm | |
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The Japanese Navy neglected to mention to the Japanese Army that they had lost the Battle of Midway up until iirc 1944. It around this point that the Japanese Prime Minister lost a vote of confidence in parliament and was replaced.[/quote] IIRC the Japanese Prime minister and Minister of War was GEN Hidiki Tojo. Suggest you read the book Shattered Sword by Tully and Parshall. The book debunked several myths about the battle like the fabulous four minutes. |
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Re: The Temple Boys Who've Witnessed Some Truths | |
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by TalonMacD » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:54 am | |
TalonMacD
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Specifically, You said "
"It's too bad that Safehold doesn't seem to have the concept of parole" Best to re-read. The concept is there, but Jihad (and the church having excommunicated Charis as a whole, plus any supporters) makes Any Parole non binding. Thus, in several points of the entire series, It is said that they would offer Parole, But they already know that the Church would not honor it, and that any that held to their parole would condemn themselves in the eyes of Mother Church Understandably, Anyone offered Parole, who took it, and held to it, would then be arrested and jailed, and of course, put to the Question by the Inquisition. Charis does not offer Parole, so that the people they would have released will not have to suffer that horror. Instead, they create and provide some of the best prisoner treatment situations in human history (as it were). |
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Re: The Temple Boys Who've Witnessed Some Truths | |
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by OrlandoNative » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:02 pm | |
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Posts: 360
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I suspect that the conquered folks used as guinea pigs for biological warfare development and testing in China; and the folks who endured the "Bataan Death March" after the fall of the Philippines might have rather suffered the Punishment; their suffering would have been over quicker. "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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