Havenite midshipmen

Now that Manticore and Haven are allied, do you think there will be Havenite students at Saganami Island? Other Manticore allies such as Grayson and Erewhon (back when they were still part of the alliance) send students there. So there is a precedent.

Henry Brown wrote:Now that Manticore and Haven are allied, do you think there will be Havenite students at Saganami Island? Other Manticore allies such as Grayson and Erewhon (back when they were still part of the alliance) send students there. So there is a precedent.

This really could go either way, Haven has it's own naval academies (Parnell was the presiding officer when Warner Caslet swore his oath to the People's Navy) and likely has its own midshipman routine.


But on the other hand, the People's Navy and possibly the Republican Navy relied more upon conscripts than a professional Naval Officer Corps, and midshipmen are a part of the professional traditions. So they could fail to see a point in sending candidates to Saganami, because after they finish a tour or two they'd leave the Navy.


So could go either way, I'm sure a very small officer pool might go, but we'd need more information on whether the Republican Navy has been building a traditional professional officer corps, or still using the previous regime's conscription.

Somtaaw wrote:But on the other hand, the People's Navy and possibly the Republican Navy relied more upon conscripts than a professional Naval Officer Corps, and midshipmen are a part of the professional traditions. So they could fail to see a point in sending candidates to Saganami, because after they finish a tour or two they'd leave the Navy.

You got that mixed up. The People's Navy conscripted most of its enlisted personnel(with a small core of career Chiefs) and maintained a career officers' corps. The Pierre Coup only changed this slightly(mostly accelerated promotions, a different type of glass ceiling and the whole Commissioner gig).

You can see the difference compared with the RMN - there have been very few notable equivalents to Harkness, MacBride, Wanderman, etc. in the Havenite navy. Most enlisted personnel with any aptitude got tapped as officers if they didn't simply serve out their tours and get out.

Indeed, Pierre wouldn't have been so worried about Parnell's popularity after the Cerberus Break if most of Caslet's graduating class had left the service. Most of the non-Legislaturalists amongst them would have become captains or commodores by the time Parnell returned from the dead.

So Havenite midshipmen would be expected to serve decades - definitely send them to Saganami if they can.

Henry Brown wrote:Now that Manticore and Haven are allied, do you think there will be Havenite students at Saganami Island? Other Manticore allies such as Grayson and Erewhon (back when they were still part of the alliance) send students there. So there is a precedent.

I think it is possible, even probable, that RHN officers will attend some version of the Saganami Island Crusher and that RMN,GSN, BSC/BSDF (Beowulf) and others will attend some version of Haven's Crusher (pre-command tactics school.)

I don't think Haven has/had "Midshipmen" as such. Their Military Academy would have been more OCS and their officers "Mustangs" and Junior Officers re-enlisting for a second term beyond the conscription requirements. I suspect that direct appointment out of secondary education was ever a large part of RHN practice.

The effects of the Dole and the poor education system would make direct appointment problematic, where in-service remedial schooling plus one enlistment's experience would make an Academy education much more effective.

I don't think Haven has made enough changes yet in the education system to start taking direct appointment Middies and direct appointment to Saganami from Haven's educational system would put such students at a disadvantage.

I would like to see a short story about one of Haven's Mustangs attending Saganami; the contrast between education and experience would be interesting.

munroburton wrote:
Indeed, Pierre wouldn't have been so worried about Parnell's popularity after the Cerberus Break if most of Caslet's graduating class had left the service. Most of the non-Legislaturalists amongst them would have become captains or commodores by the time Parnell returned from the dead.

So Havenite midshipmen would be expected to serve decades - definitely send them to Saganami if they can.

The Peep Navy relied on conscripts for the bulk of their officer corps, and it was well under a decade for the time between Parnell's "execution" and his reappearance. Lieutenants and Ensigns started out with Parnell as CNO, and were now Commodores and Admirals with Pierre (and then Theisman).

It might have been the outbreak of the war that delayed Caslet's class leaving, or maybe that was simply the class of semi-professional "lifers" I can't quite see Parnell showing up to take the oaths of a bunch of conscripts that would leave after a decade or so of service. I think it was in Echoes of Honor on the ground on Cerberus that describes the Peep officer corp (I originally thought it was Kevin Usher in tSVW assassinating Constance, but it wasn't so digging up the relevant quotes)

But I do recall very firmly that Haven has few mustangs, a very small professional officer corps (where you'd get Middies from), and pretty heavy on conscripts that "barely stay long enough to operate the existing equipment, let alone learn to service it themselves. It's that "not learning to service" thing that damns the Peep officers as "very high turnover, low service time".

Somtaaw wrote:

munroburton wrote:
Indeed, Pierre wouldn't have been so worried about Parnell's popularity after the Cerberus Break if most of Caslet's graduating class had left the service. Most of the non-Legislaturalists amongst them would have become captains or commodores by the time Parnell returned from the dead.

So Havenite midshipmen would be expected to serve decades - definitely send them to Saganami if they can.

The Peep Navy relied on conscripts for the bulk of their officer corps, and it was well under a decade for the time between Parnell's "execution" and his reappearance. Lieutenants and Ensigns started out with Parnell as CNO, and were now Commodores and Admirals with Pierre (and then Theisman).

It might have been the outbreak of the war that delayed Caslet's class leaving, or maybe that was simply the class of semi-professional "lifers" I can't quite see Parnell showing up to take the oaths of a bunch of conscripts that would leave after a decade or so of service. I think it was in Echoes of Honor on the ground on Cerberus that describes the Peep officer corp (I originally thought it was Kevin Usher in tSVW assassinating Constance, but it wasn't so digging up the relevant quotes)

But I do recall very firmly that Haven has few mustangs, a very small professional officer corps (where you'd get Middies from), and pretty heavy on conscripts that "barely stay long enough to operate the existing equipment, let alone learn to service it themselves. It's that "not learning to service" thing that damns the Peep officers as "very high turnover, low service time".

No the PN relied on short service conscripts for its enlisted personnel, much like the Soviet and Chinese navies in the RW. In the Soviet navy a conscript was in for 3 years and only 5-10% on average reenlisted.

Somtaaw wrote:But I do recall very firmly that Haven has few mustangs, a very small professional officer corps (where you'd get Middies from), ...

I think they would have a slightly different definition of "Mustang" -- just having prior enlisted service would necessarily make a "Mustang" in the RHN. It would take a career NCO upgrading via an OCS later in a career than re-enlisting to attend the academy.

Officers were conscripted in the Soviet Army. Every male was conscripted, officers just got a delay and better pay.

kzt wrote:Officers were conscripted in the Soviet Army. Every male was conscripted, officers just got a delay and better pay.

Yes and no on the officers conscription. About half of the officers corp was professional, mostly those with political connections to advance beyond the rank of captain(O-3). One of the things that shocked the flag officers of the Soviet and Warsaw Pact militaries was the vast experience of our enlisted troops. Remember in the Soviet military Sargent's were given a little extra training after boot camp and made a instant Sargent while in the NATO militaries a Sargent often had 5 to 10 years or more of experience. FYI IIRC the Red Army's boot camp was 6 or 8 weeks long and Sargent's school was an extra 2 weeks

The Soviet Union had multiple military schools (academies are for already career officers) for the Soviet Army, not just one like is typical in the West. IIRC, they were generally branch specific. And yes, there were professional officers, but you didn't volunteer to be in the military, every male who wasn't medically disqualified served in some form. IIRC, things like the Border Guards were filled by conscription too, so it wasn't just they typical military.

Anyhow, as the the idea of sending Haven midshipmen to the RMN academy, I really doubt it. The academy is more than a place to learn tactics and basic engineering, it's part of the indoctrination and evaluation process. In Haven's case teaches you how to think and behave like a Republic of Haven Naval Officer. This ignores the language issue, which I think exists to at least some extent.

Sending a US HS graduate (who happens to be fluent Russian speaker) to a Russian officers school, like the Moscow Military Commanders Training School, is not going to put out a graduate who can smoothly move into the training pipeline to run a US infantry platoon. They won't understand the US army, they understand the Russian army and how it works, and they are not the same thing.

Nor would a Russian graduate of West Point be ready to be assigned to a position in the Russian Army, no matter how fluent they are in English.

There is a place for this, and it's once you are in service and established.

For example, while I was in the Field Artillery Basic Officers Course we had two foreign officers with us. One was a captain in the Colombian army (and seemed pretty useless), the other was a lT in the Honduran army and was pretty hard core. But this was to teach people how to be FA officers in an army using US type weapons and doctrine.