Ex-Havenite defectors returning home.

Dauntless wrote:the problem with using parnell and others as advisers is that aside from the early battles they sat out the entire fight against manticore. Yes they were competent under the old rules (even leaglists wanted competent people at the top no matter how good their connections) but things have changed and I never got the impression that Parnell was master of the art like Alfreado Yu, who due to lack of connections couldn't hope to do better then command of a (admittedly top of line for Haven) battlecruiser.

The short answer is, "no".

If you've spent any time on this board at all, you already know that I am the biggest Haven fangirl in existence. The biggest. I love my Haven - my Athens of the Stars - and my signature is what it is for a reason.

But the answer is still 'no'.

Even if Eloise Pritchart wanted to do it - and I have no doubt at least part of her does - she can't. She can't give Alfredo Yu or Warner Caslet a pardon, because she would be setting a precedent far too dangerous ever to be allowed to exist, and if I were in her place, I wouldn't pardon them, either.

The fact is this: Alfredo and Warner took up arms against a star nation they had been sworn to serve. They turned against that nation, defected to another nation in active hostilities against it, and participated in battle against its military forces as active combatants.

Yes, they did it under incredible duress. Yes, they did it for all the right reasons - every right reason in the whole universe. Yes, had they not done so, they undoubtedly would have perished. And yes, in the end the star nation they betrayed was the better for it - because it was their defection, and the effect those defections had on one Honor Harrington, which laid the groundwork for the ultimate success - the formation of the Grand Alliance. Yes, they are good men, honorable men, worthy men, in all the ways that matter.

But they still took up arms against the star nation they had sworn to serve. And under no circumstances, no matter how badly she might want to, could Eloise Pritchart ever pardon that. Because it would open the door for other men and women - people who are not so good, who were not under that kind of duress, who are not that honorable or well-intentioned - to step through that door of betrayal, and implies that she sanctions what they did.

And as the President of the Republic - in many ways, I think, the true living symbol of that Republic, the embodiment of its rebirth and the hope of its future, their Lady Liberty made flesh - she cannot, under any circumstances, sanction what is in truth the definition of treason. It is absolutely impossible. She can't do it as the President of the Republic of Haven, and she can't do it as Eloise Pritchart. Because after everything she has given, everything she has lost, everything she has sacrificed in the crucible of Haven's rebirth, the very last thing in the universe she can do as Haven's guiding light is pardon the men who turned against her.

They can't ever go home again. They knew the price they would pay, and they chose to pay it. And because they did, the nation they tried so hard to love blossomed once again from the ashes of its funeral pyre. In a very real way, Alfredo Yu and Warner Caslet gave their lives for their nation as much as Javier Giscard and Joanna Hall.

And I think, in the end, they would do it all over again.

roseandheather wrote:I went into some detail on the possibility of pardoning Caslet, Yu, et al. early last year, so I'll just copy-paste my response:

The short answer is, "no".

If you've spent any time on this board at all, you already know that I am the biggest Haven fangirl in existence. The biggest. I love my Haven - my Athens of the Stars - and my signature is what it is for a reason.

But the answer is still 'no'.

Even if Eloise Pritchart wanted to do it - and I have no doubt at least part of her does - she can't. She can't give Alfredo Yu or Warner Caslet a pardon, because she would be setting a precedent far too dangerous ever to be allowed to exist, and if I were in her place, I wouldn't pardon them, either.

The fact is this: Alfredo and Warner took up arms against a star nation they had been sworn to serve. They turned against that nation, defected to another nation in active hostilities against it, and participated in battle against its military forces as active combatants.

Yes, they did it under incredible duress. Yes, they did it for all the right reasons - every right reason in the whole universe. Yes, had they not done so, they undoubtedly would have perished. And yes, in the end the star nation they betrayed was the better for it - because it was their defection, and the effect those defections had on one Honor Harrington, which laid the groundwork for the ultimate success - the formation of the Grand Alliance. Yes, they are good men, honorable men, worthy men, in all the ways that matter.

But they still took up arms against the star nation they had sworn to serve. And under no circumstances, no matter how badly she might want to, could Eloise Pritchart ever pardon that. Because it would open the door for other men and women - people who are not so good, who were not under that kind of duress, who are not that honorable or well-intentioned - to step through that door of betrayal, and implies that she sanctions what they did.

And as the President of the Republic - in many ways, I think, the true living symbol of that Republic, the embodiment of its rebirth and the hope of its future, their Lady Liberty made flesh - she cannot, under any circumstances, sanction what is in truth the definition of treason. It is absolutely impossible. She can't do it as the President of the Republic of Haven, and she can't do it as Eloise Pritchart. Because after everything she has given, everything she has lost, everything she has sacrificed in the crucible of Haven's rebirth, the very last thing in the universe she can do as Haven's guiding light is pardon the men who turned against her.

They can't ever go home again. They knew the price they would pay, and they chose to pay it. And because they did, the nation they tried so hard to love blossomed once again from the ashes of its funeral pyre. In a very real way, Alfredo Yu and Warner Caslet gave their lives for their nation as much as Javier Giscard and Joanna Hall.

And I think, in the end, they would do it all over again.

Somtaaw wrote:

Dauntless wrote:the problem with using parnell and others as advisers is that aside from the early battles they sat out the entire fight against manticore. Yes they were competent under the old rules (even leaglists wanted competent people at the top no matter how good their connections) but things have changed and I never got the impression that Parnell was master of the art like Alfreado Yu, who due to lack of connections couldn't hope to do better then command of a (admittedly top of line for Haven) battlecruiser.

Parnell was brilliant, he took a fleet into Yeltsin expecting a 2:1 ship advantage (higher in straight tonnage) and Admiral White Haven had a huge fleet that was almost twice as big as Parnell's, AND half of it was stealthed for an ambush.

Parnell fought almost his whole fleet clear, by his own thoughts he didn't remember any of the commands and was going to reconstruct everything from bridge logs later, but the Cordelia Randsom arrested him first.

That means he has to be at least as good at tactics as White Haven, and with all his experience in conquering the systems prior to Manticore, he's going to have a solid grasp on strategy and he knows Manticore is sneaky, cause they fed him the false information that caused him to jump early. So assuming he agreed to help the mandarins, he'd fight slightly smarter.

But it's rather unlikely they'd ask him to become an advisor or strategy admiral.

The Short Victorious War, Chapter 33 wrote:Amos Parnell sat in his office off DuQuesne Base's central war room and stared in sick horror at his terminal. The stocky, powerful CNO seemed shrunken, aged beyond his years, and his face was haggard.
His task force had returned to the Barnett System less than ten hours ago after its agonizingly slow passage from Yeltsin and what he supposed historians would call the Battle of Yeltsin. "Massacre of Yeltsin" would be more appropriate, and it was his fault. He'd taken the Manties' bait hook, line, and sinker.
He closed his eyes, covering his face with his hands, and knew he was a beaten man. Not just by the Manties, but inside. He'd gone into Yeltsin believing he had a three-to-one advantage, only to find himself facing a force even stronger than his own, and somehow the Manties and their allies had been able to preposition their powered-down wall of battle perfectly. It was as if they'd been clairvoyant, as if they'd been able to see every move he made in real time.
Their opening broadsides had taken him totally by surprise. A quarter of his fleet had been crippled or destroyed almost before he knew the enemy was there, and he had no idea how he'd extricated anything from the deadly trap. He couldn't remember. No doubt he could replay the com records and flag bridge recorders and reconstruct his orders, but he had absolutely no coherent memory of giving them. It was all a hideous nightmare of lightning-fast decisions and desperate improvisation that had somehow fought clear of Yeltsin with barely half the ships he'd taken into it, and half of them had been so battered their return to Barnett had taken more than twice as long as the passage out.

Field of Dishonor, Chapter Five wrote:"And that doesn't even consider the other new motivating factor," Webster threw in. William looked at him, and the admiral shrugged. "Come back with your shield or on it," he said. "Anyone who disappoints the new regime will go the same way Parnell went." An expression of genuine regret crossed his features, and he sighed. "The man was an enemy, and I hated the system he represented, but damn it all, he deserved better than that."
"He certainly did." White Haven dumped himself back into his chair and reached for his own coffee cup. "He was good, Jim. Better than I thought. I had him cold in Yeltsin. He never had a clue we were there, or in such strength, before we opened up on him, and he still managed to get almost half his fleet out of it. And then his own government shot him for 'treason'!" The earl sipped coffee, then shook his head sadly and drew a deep breath."

Somtaaw wrote:White Haven was definitely impressed by Parnell's skills, and White Haven being acknowledged as being one of Manticore's best field admirals, that's a good indicator Parnell's nearly as good.

munroburton wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:White Haven was definitely impressed by Parnell's skills, and White Haven being acknowledged as being one of Manticore's best field admirals, that's a good indicator Parnell's nearly as good.

I have the impression sometimes that White Haven's skill is perhaps a little overstated. His reputation probably has as much to do with the way he mostly stayed away from political games and the greater dedication to his duty and mastering his trade(successfully) he showed than, say, that Admiral Young on Earth or Edward Janacek.

Maybe I just count First Nightingale against him too heavily - but had that Bogey Two CO held their nerve a few minutes longer, White Haven would have been snared and for good. And of course, Honor's later lecture made some pretty valid points.

Eagleeye wrote:Another possibility: The Mandarins could try to get Parnell and/or some of the other officers who took asylum in the League as some sort of military advisors. After all, some experience in naval operations outside the 'gimme'-simulations the SLN used is better than no experience at all, and the Havenite exilantes from Hades are experienced people, even if they didn't set a foot on a command deck for the better part of the last 20 years.

But no Battle-Fleet officer fought (and won) even a small skirmish, much less a full scale naval operation and survived the experience (at least as far as we know).

The question would be, if Parnell and Co would be willing to do the bidding of the Mandarins ... which I doubt. Strongly.