Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

DMcCunney wrote:[snip]
There's a difference between claiming Merlin got help from demons, like devices provided by Shan-Wei or her servent Proctor, and claiming Merlin himself is a demon. That runs into the problem that their theology holds that an actual demonic manifestation will get a divine response. God and the Archangels have yet to intervene on the side of Mother Church, despite her almost unbroken string of defeats at the hand of the Charisian Empire. If Merlin is in fact a demon, that should not be the case.

[snip]
______
Dennis

I can't remember exactly where, but isn't there a section somewhere saying that the seijins had always been on the side of the true Church, and the fact that the currently operating seijins were fighting against the Church was a clear indication that the CoGA was no longer the true Church?

I'm actually a little surprised that this has not been the subject of an anti-Clyntahn whispering campaign. Does anyone remember any textev that this might be taking place?
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Actually, Inquisition did call Merlin a demon... from MTaT / April 896 / Chapter 1:

For the diehard Temple Loyalists, there was a simpler, more acceptable explanation, of course—one supplied and endorsed by the Inquisition. They’d long since decided that in addition to all the blasphemies and heresies the world knew about, Cayleb and Sharleyan had sold themselves to Shan-wei—Cayleb in return for his demon familiar, Merlin Athrawes, and the sorceress Sharleyan in return for the power to steal the hearts and minds of even the godliest men and seduce them into Shan-wei’s evil—so of course they could foresee the future as well.

I seem to remember Rayno saying to Clyntahn that Merlin might actually be a demon after all, but it was in a private conversation AFAIR.

Randomiser wrote:I seem to remember Rayno saying to Clyntahn that Merlin might actually be a demon after all, but it was in a private conversation AFAIR.

But wasn't there a further comment that they couldn't understand how a demon could enter a church safely?
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Peter2 wrote:

Randomiser wrote:I seem to remember Rayno saying to Clyntahn that Merlin might actually be a demon after all, but it was in a private conversation AFAIR.

But wasn't there a further comment that they couldn't understand how a demon could enter a church safely?
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I think that was in HFQ. Rayno Clyntahn discussing the possibility of Mabb and the Fist of God joining.

EdThomas wrote:Latest rumination:
IMHO The sailors on Prodigal Lass and those ashore in hospital are going to play a role in taking Dohlar out of the Jihad. I can foresee Clyntahn ordering them sent to Zion overland which will require a large body of soldiers for protection. The spark might come from the confrontation between Thirsk's Marines and the Army escort. The Marines (with Maik's support? ?) refuse to surrender the navy personnel then the Army escort refuses to fire on the Marines. Richter's Intendant seems to be trying to be helpful wnich might incline him to support Maik.
The big question for me is how to get the rest of the country to support the defiance of Thirsk and his Marines. I don't recall any textev concerning civilian morale. The population does seem to be behind the efforts to prevent Hanth from invading Dohlar.

Hohum, only the Celery-eater knows

I easily can see something like this happening. As to the reaction of the general population, I simply don't know. We have very little information on what Dohlaran civilians who are not affiliated with the nobility or the CoGA are thinking or feeling.

But I do believe whatever the Church tries to do to the current Prodigal Lass prisoners is going to be the touchstone for whatever happens. And I also believe something will happen before the Charisan army gets through Rychtyr's men.

One delightful thought, though. If it does happen, the issue of Silkiah and the Silkiah Canal will pretty much resolve itself, leaving Charis in a much more robust logistical situation, and the Church in a far more precarious one.

Think on it. The Church's supplies then must come from Harchong, the Border States (already having their own problems, and soon to have more), or South Harchong (the Gulf of Dohlar is huge, so materials will make it across the gulf to the Temple Lands, but the Church's ability to set up convoys for large shipments of supplies from South Harchong would be severely dimished if Dohlar and its Navy go over to Charis).

EdThomas wrote:Latest rumination:
IMHO The sailors on Prodigal Lass and those ashore in hospital are going to play a role in taking Dohlar out of the Jihad. I can foresee Clyntahn ordering them sent to Zion overland which will require a large body of soldiers for protection. The spark might come from the confrontation between Thirsk's Marines and the Army escort. The Marines (with Maik's support? ?) refuse to surrender the navy personnel then the Army escort refuses to fire on the Marines. Richter's Intendant seems to be trying to be helpful wnich might incline him to support Maik.
The big question for me is how to get the rest of the country to support the defiance of Thirsk and his Marines. I don't recall any textev concerning civilian morale. The population does seem to be behind the efforts to prevent Hanth from invading Dohlar.

Interesting idea, but I doubt it. Given the bone-deep reverence for Mother Church and the terror of the Inquisition, I don't see Thirsk's marines fighting the Dohloran army to prevent them from carrying out the Grand Inquisitor's orders.

I'm more interested in the potential fallout from another area. In a conversation with Rayno, Clyntahn expressed displeasure at an apparent growing relationship between Thirsk and Sir Rainos Ahlvarez.

Clyntahn wants Thirsk's head, and only awaits a time when he thinks he can avoid morale fallout to take it.

Kharmych, Clyntahn's senior Inquisitor in Dohlor, wants Ahlvarez's head, and that of his Intendant. More sensible folks in Dohlor recognize Duke Harless led the Army of Justice to disaster and ruin, and Sir Rainos pulled off a minor miracle in getting the remnants of his command and 10,000 or so Desnairans out of the trap and back to Dohlor. But for Clyntahn's man, you either succeed or you die fighting. Retreat and saving at least a part of your army for future use is not an option.

His experience trying to deal with Harless has already forced Ahlvarez to reconsider who was truly at fault when Prince Cayleb's galleons destroyed the fleets of Dohlor and Tarot off Armageddon Reef. Defeat was likely anyway, but if Duke Malikai had actually listened to Thirsk, things might have turned out at least somewhat better.

Thirsk and Ahlvarez are now in the same boat. Each has done about as well as a mere mortal can in trying to carry out the wishes of Mother Church, and their reward for not being able to do the impossible is a likely horrible death at the hands of the Inquisition. They have powerful common interests to counter the long standing animosities.

We haven't seen any actual contact between them in the books thus far, but once there is the results might be fascinating. A (possibly unspoken) agreement that many things would be better if there weren't Inquisitors looking over everyone's shoulders might bear interesting fruit. (And I wonder when we might see folks outside of the Empire of Charis and its ally Siddarmark deciding that the only good Inquisitor is a dead one.)
________
Dennis

Peter2 wrote:I can't remember exactly where, but isn't there a section somewhere saying that the seijins had always been on the side of the true Church, and the fact that the currently operating seijins were fighting against the Church was a clear indication that the CoGA was no longer the true Church?

The Testimonies were unanimous in claiming the seijins all fought on the side of Light. This is a reason why the Inquisition won't admit Merlin might actually be a seijin. If he is, the CoGA isn't the true Church any longer.

I'm actually a little surprised that this has not been the subject of an anti-Clyntahn whispering campaign. Does anyone remember any textev that this might be taking place?

I don't recall one, but who would start it? It's the sort of thing Aivah Parsahn might do in Zion, but while likely worth doing, it won't have any real effect. Clyntahn is firmly in control in Zion.

But the Empire lack's Aivah's network in other realms, so their ability to start such a campaign would be limited at best.

And it's ultimately not needed. Many people outside of Charis have already decided Merlin is actually a seijin, despite his refusal to claim the title, and they are all aware that the seijins mentioned in accounts of the War Against the Fallen fought for the true Church, so if Merlin is a seijin, the Church of Charis is the current true Church. The sort of result a whispering campaign like that would want to produce is already occurring.
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Dennis

DMcCunney wrote:

EdThomas wrote:Latest rumination:
IMHO The sailors on Prodigal Lass and those ashore in hospital are going to play a role in taking Dohlar out of the Jihad. I can foresee Clyntahn ordering them sent to Zion overland which will require a large body of soldiers for protection. The spark might come from the confrontation between Thirsk's Marines and the Army escort. The Marines (with Maik's support? ?) refuse to surrender the navy personnel then the Army escort refuses to fire on the Marines. Richter's Intendant seems to be trying to be helpful wnich might incline him to support Maik.
The big question for me is how to get the rest of the country to support the defiance of Thirsk and his Marines. I don't recall any textev concerning civilian morale. The population does seem to be behind the efforts to prevent Hanth from invading Dohlar.

Interesting idea, but I doubt it. Given the bone-deep reverence for Mother Church and the terror of the Inquisition, I don't see Thirsk's marines fighting the Dohloran army to prevent them from carrying out the Grand Inquisitor's orders.

I'm more interested in the potential fallout from another area. In a conversation with Rayno, Clyntahn expressed displeasure at an apparent growing relationship between Thirsk and Sir Rainos Ahlvarez.

Clyntahn wants Thirsk's head, and only awaits a time when he thinks he can avoid morale fallout to take it.

Kharmych, Clyntahn's senior Inquisitor in Dohlor, wants Ahlvarez's head, and that of his Intendant. More sensible folks in Dohlor recognize Duke Harless led the Army of Justice to disaster and ruin, and Sir Rainos pulled off a minor miracle in getting the remnants of his command and 10,000 or so Desnairans out of the trap and back to Dohlor. But for Clyntahn's man, you either succeed or you die fighting. Retreat and saving at least a part of your army for future use is not an option.

His experience trying to deal with Harless has already forced Ahlvarez to reconsider who was truly at fault when Prince Cayleb's galleons destroyed the fleets of Dohlor and Tarot off Armageddon Reef. Defeat was likely anyway, but if Duke Malikai had actually listened to Thirsk, things might have turned out at least somewhat better.

Thirsk and Ahlvarez are now in the same boat. Each has done about as well as a mere mortal can in trying to carry out the wishes of Mother Church, and their reward for not being able to do the impossible is a likely horrible death at the hands of the Inquisition. They have powerful common interests to counter the long standing animosities.

We haven't seen any actual contact between them in the books thus far, but once there is the results might be fascinating. A (possibly unspoken) agreement that many things would be better if there weren't Inquisitors looking over everyone's shoulders might bear interesting fruit. (And I wonder when we might see folks outside of the Empire of Charis and its ally Siddarmark deciding that the only good Inquisitor is a dead one.)
________
Dennis

I'd love to see Thirsk and Ahlverez get together - perhaps with their Intendants. Problem is, they'd probably be arrested the same night for conspiracy.

The thing about the Inquisition in Dohlar is that 'the Emperor has no clothes'. They can only do anything as long as the Dohlaran military let them do it. There is no way there are enough Temple Guardsmen down there to stand up any sizeable section if the Dohlaran military. The Inquisition's power is based on fear and the habit of obedience. "All it takes to stand them off is for the navy to say "They're our people, you're not having them. (Come and take them if you dare!)' And the army to say 'Sorry, Inquisition, you are on your own!" Well that and the determination to follow through and deal with the long term consequences.

Peter2 the EoC can't start a whispering campaign about Merlin being a Seijin because the inner circle decided long ago that they weren't going to lie to people. Especially not publicly and especially not in a way that confirms the existing world-view. Seijin as popularly understood simply don't exist which is why Merlin never claims to be one.