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Effect: SL formal declaration of war

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Re: Effect: SL formal declaration of war
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:26 pm

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cthia wrote:I don't understand why the League Constitution doesn't have "emergency" powers to save itself when "National Security" is threatened.


It does have an "emergency powers" clause. Adm Rajampet asserts he can send Filareta under that clause although one of the other Mandarins thinks he's stretching the authority it grants to the breaking point.

It apparently permits military action in "self-defense" but it doesn't grant any powers of taxation or extraordinary funding. It takes a declaration of war to get those "emergency powers."
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Effect: SL formal declaration of war
Post by saber964   » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:17 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't understand why the League Constitution doesn't have "emergency" powers to save itself when "National Security" is threatened.


It does have an "emergency powers" clause. Adm Rajampet asserts he can send Filareta under that clause although one of the other Mandarins thinks he's stretching the authority it grants to the breaking point.

It apparently permits military action in "self-defense" but it doesn't grant any powers of taxation or extraordinary funding. It takes a declaration of war to get those "emergency powers."



IIRC it is Article Seven. What it does is give the SLN the power to conduct limited offensive operations in response to an attack. Much like what the RMN did in the opening months of the First Haven-Manticore war in response to PN attacks at Hancock and Third Yeltsin. But the SLN needs a declaration of war to free up money to conduct the war.

Remember what Caperelli was discussing with Mourncreek in FoD about if Caperelli diverted funding from various sources he could continue offensive operations for 4 to 6 T-months.
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Re: Effect: SL formal declaration of war
Post by Vince   » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:55 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't understand why the League Constitution doesn't have "emergency" powers to save itself when "National Security" is threatened. Everyone seems to agree that the League has a noose around its neck. Barring that the League government is weighted down by beaurecracy and couldn't quickly pass a "bill on a hill of beans," surely the correct strings to pull has to be there in case of a threat to national security?
Probably for similar reasons that the EU (as far as I can see) doesn't have emergency powers. None of the sovereign nations that agreed to form it (or join later) were willing to give up that much control. They're probably more worried about how a emergency could be exploited (or created, and then exploited) to override their rights than they are that the system might come apart by paralyzing itself during an actual existential emergency.

(That probably goes double for the League since, unlike the EU, when it formed there literally were no external forces powerful enough to threaten or seriously harm it)

I would change that last sentence in parenthesis to say:

(That probably goes millions of times for the League since, unlike the EU, when it formed there literally were no external forces either in existence, conceivable, or even imaginable, powerful enough to threaten or seriously harm it)
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Re: Effect: SL formal declaration of war
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:34 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't understand why the League Constitution doesn't have "emergency" powers to save itself when "National Security" is threatened. Everyone seems to agree that the League has a noose around its neck. Barring that the League government is weighted down by beaurecracy and couldn't quickly pass a "bill on a hill of beans," surely the correct strings to pull has to be there in case of a threat to national security?
Probably for similar reasons that the EU (as far as I can see) doesn't have emergency powers. None of the sovereign nations that agreed to form it (or join later) were willing to give up that much control. They're probably more worried about how a emergency could be exploited (or created, and then exploited) to override their rights than they are that the system might come apart by paralyzing itself during an actual existential emergency.

(That probably goes double for the League since, unlike the EU, when it formed there literally were no external forces powerful enough to threaten or seriously harm it)

*There are similar concerns in our own system where such emergency powers exist. But such emergencies need be addressed if such emergencies arise.

A serious problem with the League's model I see, is the temptation and relative ease of an errant criminal polity, such as Mesa to purchase veto power of the League's government with bribes. And every link in the League's chain is subject to bribery. It would be rather easy for a filthy rich entity to hamstring the government. That single clause weakens the League's constitution the most. It was a builtin "self-destruct on a timer" clause awaiting for the correct primer - as in a worthy naval opponent.

What emergency is more of an innate emergency than self-preservation? And in an age of naval ships and super powers, what bigger and immanent emergency is there other than the need to fund the military budget? Every system has hit that beaurecratic wall with "red tape vengeance," at least once. The SEM, Grayson, Haven and I'm sure the Andermani.

I wonder if the MAlign has to deal with such mundane, counterproductive distracting elements as funds allocated to the military budget?

Wouldn't it be to the MAlign's advantage to nanite the DoW through? Or buy the votes? Heck, polities wanting to secede should be willing to GIVE their vote. Let the League commit the hari kari that the Beowulfians humanely denied them.

It could become part of the Mandarin's own plan, reverse reverse psychology. The League could send ships acting as (rogue ships) to different systems stirring them up against themself. "We should support the League in a DoW. The Manties would more quickly squash them." The League needs the equivalent of an Anisimovna to pull that off.

EPIPHANY! Isn't that a thought? Certainly the MAlign realizes this themselves and may get behind greasing the political wheels toward a DoE.

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*Of course, our very own US has these powers. A concern is the president could use the powers to become a dictator...

or... "It also makes it possible to do away with posse comitatus in cases of 'emergency'. Posse comitatus is what protects American citizens from the military being used against them."

From our very own hardworking assistant, Wikipedia...
State of national emergency

Regarding what is known as a State of National Emergency, Paula Demers writes: "According to the United States Constitution, Article 1, only Congress shall make federal law. However, since the War and Emergency Powers Act of 1933, every president has usurped lawmaking powers. Their 'laws' are called Executive Orders (EOs). These EOs, not our Constitution, are what is governing America today. The War and Emergency Powers Act enables ... the president to declare a national emergency, and thereby become a dictator."

"Presidents can also carefully choose their words and declare a war on anything, in order to give them dictatorial control. For example, the War on Drugs makes it possible to use federal authorities, such as FBI, FEMA, BATF, and the military against American citizens. A well-known example is Waco. Another example is Hurricane Opal. After Florida was declared a nation emergency, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) arrived on the scene and residents were placed under marshal law (restricted to the point of not going outside their door).

When the federal government does this, it is going against the Constitution. The War and Emergency Powers Act is an unconstitutional act on the part of our government, created so that presidents can bypass Congress, and do whatever they choose."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... _emergency

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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