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Git your pencils out and design me a ship!

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Re: Git your pencils out and design me a ship!
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:53 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:Somtaaw put up your own design or shut up. You seem to criticize a great deal but have no original ideas or thoughts.



I'm saying that to you, my friend. I have posted original ideas on various threads, and then proceed to discuss back and forth between other people with intelligent design discussion as to pros & cons about various elements in the hopes to create something even better than just one person might consider.

You, however, throw a wishlist and refuse to hear "thats not even remotely possible, but here's some changes that might make it possibly, in some remote alternate universe happen"
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Re: Git your pencils out and design me a ship!
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:25 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:
LAC used to have antiship lasers optimiser for anti missile duties. They fill the gap between CM and PD and will rarely be used for ship to ship combat with anything but light or civilian ships. Modern tech can do the same with DD CL lasers.

Nike carry SD Grasers. They are not Star Destroyer Turbo laser sized, they are between 1 Apollo missile to two Mk16 end to end in size. Maybe 10 metres max. Plus capacitors.



LACs have also never had anti shipping lasers that are "optimized" for anti mossile. A laser is either anti shipping or it is a ppint defense laser cluster for anti missile optimization. Optimization means "designed to be really really good at" somethong and bad at everything else. To optimize for anti missile means its terrible for anything else.

What you are thinkong of is a Shrike, which has its graser for anti shipping, but also has 4 forward facing PDLC and 4 more facing aft. Both the graser and PDLC are cruiser weight items.

The Katana LAC has no anti shipping laser, but has THREE superdreadnought PDLC, which seem to displace almost as much space as the Shrike graser.


I'd continue to, somewhat respectfully point out the flaws, but im posting off my phone now and it's too difficult to go digging through my post history to prove i post original content and to tear apart your idea to reassemble it as something that isn't fantasy. Such as the idea ypur "Silesian patrol craft" can have sleeves to fire smaller missiles out of mk23 tubes...
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Re: Git your pencils out and design me a ship!
Post by Theemile   » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:12 am

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Somtaaw wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:
LAC used to have antiship lasers optimiser for anti missile duties. They fill the gap between CM and PD and will rarely be used for ship to ship combat with anything but light or civilian ships. Modern tech can do the same with DD CL lasers.

Nike carry SD Grasers. They are not Star Destroyer Turbo laser sized, they are between 1 Apollo missile to two Mk16 end to end in size. Maybe 10 metres max. Plus capacitors.



LACs have also never had anti shipping lasers that are "optimized" for anti mossile. A laser is either anti shipping or it is a ppint defense laser cluster for anti missile optimization. Optimization means "designed to be really really good at" somethong and bad at everything else. To optimize for anti missile means its terrible for anything else.

What you are thinkong of is a Shrike, which has its graser for anti shipping, but also has 4 forward facing PDLC and 4 more facing aft. Both the graser and PDLC are cruiser weight items.

The Katana LAC has no anti shipping laser, but has THREE superdreadnought PDLC, which seem to displace almost as much space as the Shrike graser.


I'd continue to, somewhat respectfully point out the flaws, but im posting off my phone now and it's too difficult to go digging through my post history to prove i post original content and to tear apart your idea to reassemble it as something that isn't fantasy. Such as the idea ypur "Silesian patrol craft" can have sleeves to fire smaller missiles out of mk23 tubes...


Actually Skimper is correct. Many legacy LAC designs used their small anti-ship lasers in anti-missile roles, mainly because they didn't have tge mass to field sufficient( or any ) pdlcs. The Havenites use the main energy battery in defense mode as well on all their units. It is actually just Manty doctrine not to use the energy battery in an anti-missile role, probably because of the quality of their ecm, cms, and pdlcs that they don't need them.
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Re: Git your pencils out and design me a ship!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:19 am

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Somtaaw wrote:LACs have also never had anti shipping lasers that are "optimized" for anti mossile. A laser is either anti shipping or it is a ppint defense laser cluster for anti missile optimization. Optimization means "designed to be really really good at" somethong and bad at everything else. To optimize for anti missile means its terrible for anything else.

There's a mention somewhere that anti-ship energy weapons are also used for missile defense, and that the Peeps are a bit better at that than the Manties. And IIRC that was a very secondary reason for ships to carry more of smaller energy weapons rather than a few big ones (at least until the Graysons shoo things up).

Though I don't recall anything about old-style LACs relying significantly on their main energy batteries for missile defense. I mean I'm sure they'd take a shot with them at any incoming missiles but that's not the same as optimizing them for it.
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Re: Git your pencils out and design me a ship!
Post by jchilds   » Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:37 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:LACs have also never had anti shipping lasers that are "optimized" for anti mossile. A laser is either anti shipping or it is a ppint defense laser cluster for anti missile optimization. Optimization means "designed to be really really good at" somethong and bad at everything else. To optimize for anti missile means its terrible for anything else.

There's a mention somewhere that anti-ship energy weapons are also used for missile defense, and that the Peeps are a bit better at that than the Manties. And IIRC that was a very secondary reason for ships to carry more of smaller energy weapons rather than a few big ones (at least until the Graysons shoo things up).

Though I don't recall anything about old-style LACs relying significantly on their main energy batteries for missile defense. I mean I'm sure they'd take a shot with them at any incoming missiles but that's not the same as optimizing them for it.


Here -

House of Steel wrote:The Highlander-class light attack craft was commissioned in 1843 PD as a system defense picket and customs patrol unit. It had a heavier beam armament than most contemporary classes, though contrary to typical RMN doctrine of the time, the lasers were optimized for point defense fire as well as the antiship role.
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Re: Git your pencils out and design me a ship!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:18 am

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jchilds wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:There's a mention somewhere that anti-ship energy weapons are also used for missile defense, and that the Peeps are a bit better at that than the Manties. And IIRC that was a very secondary reason for ships to carry more of smaller energy weapons rather than a few big ones (at least until the Graysons shoo things up).

Though I don't recall anything about old-style LACs relying significantly on their main energy batteries for missile defense. I mean I'm sure they'd take a shot with them at any incoming missiles but that's not the same as optimizing them for it.


Here -

House of Steel wrote:The Highlander-class light attack craft was commissioned in 1843 PD as a system defense picket and customs patrol unit. It had a heavier beam armament than most contemporary classes, though contrary to typical RMN doctrine of the time, the lasers were optimized for point defense fire as well as the antiship role.
Thanks.
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Re: Git your pencils out and design me a ship!
Post by Somtaaw   » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:26 am

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Interesting, that Highlander LAC description is really terrible for making you think it's possible to optimize a laser for two incredibly different things.

I knew both Manticore and Haven use broadside beams to assist in point defense, Haven relies far more heavily on it than Manticore does. And that when Grayson, followed by Manticore started using "less but heavier" they were willing to accept to point defense degradation in favor of being able to slam harder hits.


But a anti-shipping laser, in my mind, still cannot be "optimized" for both anti-shipping (which requires larger pulses for bigger & harder hits) and anti-missile (which requires many small pulses to hit many missiles). Those are opposite roles for the laser, and to "optimize" one way will degrade your performance the other.

Example, when Hexapuma used her PDLC's for force neutralization over Montana, she accepted that each independent hit would do vastly less damage, than her main grasers which would have vaporized the whole ship. Of course, there was still crippling damage, but the PDLC's pulsed one beam per mount every 2 seconds versus 1 graser per mount every X,since we don't actually know how fast the laser or grasers cycle. We do know that during Terekhov dreaming of his final battle in Hyacinth that Defiant went to "rapid fire" and actually blew one of her chasers up in an overloard but we never actually got the cycle time. I imagine it has to be longer than PDLC's, which have anywhere between 12 and 30 lasing rods and each one has a 16 second cycle time (I'd have to recheck Shadows of Saganami to be sure)

Edit addendum: I put such a wide range of lasing rods on PDLCs, because I figured that smaller destroyer PDLC's will have less rods than a cruiser (like Hexapuma), which will have less rods than a superdreadnought PDLC (which is supposed to have pretty much the most of anything in space)

Edit: checking SoS, Hexapuma's PDLCs had dozens of PDLC's with each mount having 8 lasing rods. Each of those PDLC lasers cycle every 16 seconds, so a laser or graser would likely be somewhere between 12 and 20 seconds per shot.
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Re: Git your pencils out and design me a ship!
Post by Louis R   » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:43 pm

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AAMOF, 'optimising' doesn't actually mean making it perfect. Only as good as possible in the circumstances.

In any case, other than missile warheads, Honorverse energy weapons are not solid-state lasers - if they were, the rods would have to be replaced after every shot, since they _would_ self-destruct. That's fundamental physics, not engineering, so no weaseling out of it.

If [note that word, it's significant] my assumptions about the design and construction of the weapons are approximately correct, I can see ways of designing dual-mode systems. What it comes down to is getting enough energy into a missile to kill it. There are 3 problems: the emission itself, beam steering, and fire-control. Fire-control is relatively simple - even if you don't just hand main battery control off to your existing defensive systems, reconfiguration would be 90% control systems, and little or nothing would need to be tweaked in the physical plant to permit it. Emitter design would probably need some pre-planning. Not actually in the emitters themselves, but in the accelerators feeding them, which I believe would need some extra switching gear for reconfiguration, but a 2-4x increase in PRF, with commensurate decrease in peak energy, is conceivable - and if that's still more than enough energy for a kill, that's all that's needed. The real trick would be in beam steering - again, physics puts limits on how fast you can move a large emitter head, so you'd have to do much of it using the gravitic lens system. That's probably where much of the beam steering is already being done anyway, but you would certainly need a more complex system if you were going to try to do it fast enough for counter-missile use, and that would be where most of the mass penalty would lie.

Somtaaw wrote:Interesting, that Highlander LAC description is really terrible for making you think it's possible to optimize a laser for two incredibly different things.

I knew both Manticore and Haven use broadside beams to assist in point defense, Haven relies far more heavily on it than Manticore does. And that when Grayson, followed by Manticore started using "less but heavier" they were willing to accept to point defense degradation in favor of being able to slam harder hits.


But a anti-shipping laser, in my mind, still cannot be "optimized" for both anti-shipping (which requires larger pulses for bigger & harder hits) and anti-missile (which requires many small pulses to hit many missiles). Those are opposite roles for the laser, and to "optimize" one way will degrade your performance the other.

Example, when Hexapuma used her PDLC's for force neutralization over Montana, she accepted that each independent hit would do vastly less damage, than her main grasers which would have vaporized the whole ship. Of course, there was still crippling damage, but the PDLC's pulsed one beam per mount every 2 seconds versus 1 graser per mount every X,since we don't actually know how fast the laser or grasers cycle. We do know that during Terekhov dreaming of his final battle in Hyacinth that Defiant went to "rapid fire" and actually blew one of her chasers up in an overloard but we never actually got the cycle time. I imagine it has to be longer than PDLC's, which have anywhere between 12 and 30 lasing rods and each one has a 16 second cycle time (I'd have to recheck Shadows of Saganami to be sure)

Edit addendum: I put such a wide range of lasing rods on PDLCs, because I figured that smaller destroyer PDLC's will have less rods than a cruiser (like Hexapuma), which will have less rods than a superdreadnought PDLC (which is supposed to have pretty much the most of anything in space)

Edit: checking SoS, Hexapuma's PDLCs had dozens of PDLC's with each mount having 8 lasing rods. Each of those PDLC lasers cycle every 16 seconds, so a laser or graser would likely be somewhere between 12 and 20 seconds per shot.
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Re: Git your pencils out and design me a ship!
Post by MuonNeutrino   » Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:27 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:Somtaaw put up your own design or shut up. You seem to criticize a great deal but have no original ideas or thoughts.

Skimper, take some elementary courses in logic, common sense, basic mathematics, and reading comprehension or shut up. You seem to post a great deal but have no rational ideas or thoughts.
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Re: Git your pencils out and design me a ship!
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:30 am

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Somtaaw wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:Somtaaw put up your own design or shut up. You seem to criticize a great deal but have no original ideas or thoughts.



I'm saying that to you, my friend. I have posted original ideas on various threads, and then proceed to discuss back and forth between other people with intelligent design discussion as to pros & cons about various elements in the hopes to create something even better than just one person might consider.

You, however, throw a wishlist and refuse to hear "thats not even remotely possible, but here's some changes that might make it possibly, in some remote alternate universe happen"


What is not remotely possible here?
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