Assuming you were in the position of Michelle Henke ...

George J. Smith wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Visigoth settled from Beowulf and as a daughter colony of Beowulf would not be on the Lacoon 2 list?

No data to indicate who settled Visigoth, or where they came from.

The only thing we know for certain about Beowulf's daughter colonies from text evidence is:
1) They exist.
2) There are at least two of them, since they have always been referred to in the plural.
3) "Beowulf carries a hell of a lot of prestige, and every one of her daughter colonies is going to follow her lead where anything having to do with genetic slavery is involved."*

We don't know how many of Beowulf's daughter colonies do exist (if any) beyond at least two, nor do we know any of their names.

Mesa is not included in Beowulf's daughter colony total, even though it was settled from Beowulf because:
1) "Ever since Leonard Detweiler and his malcontents had relocated to Mesa, the system had been Beowulf’s dark twin."**
2) Mesa does not follow Beowulf.

* Quote from Storm From the Shadows.
** Quote from A Rising Thunder.

It's a well known terminus, so the upper transit limit is known, thus the maximum tonnage of warships that can come in via the terminus at once is known.

As 10th fleet has already captured the system, I think it's safe to say the Mesa System SDF (which was already minimal for a planet of Mesa's wealth if I recall correctly) has surrendered. Any force at the terminus would run or surrender to 10th Fleet units.

So take the maximum transit tonnage, picket the terminus with sufficient light units and Shrike LACs to put energy weapons on every transiting ship, go with say X number of Solarian Battle Cruisers could transit (BCs and DDNs seem to be the preferred SLN units, not much mention of SLN Light and Heavy Cruisers.)

Any one that doesn't know Mesa had been captured will be transiting in one by one in a standard transit pattern, not a end to end transit as 3rd and 8th fleets have done in defense of Basilisk and the Manticore system. That means light units will have no problem dealing with SLN SDs that are coming in one by one at long intervals with no wedge, and any such transit would be cleared via dispatch boat from Visigoth, so this type of transit seems unlikely. If it does happen, the first ships will likely be mission killed wreckage drifting away from the terminus serving as an example for the following captains.

Any unannounced mass transit of ships has to be hostile, just open fire before they get wedges up. That's the real reason for having enough light units to put many energy weapons on every ship of a mass transit.

All that done with no ammunition expenditure. Some light units may be lost to ships that are better trained and commanded by decent officers, and that would hurt 10th Fleet moral but still better to lose the light units and conserve MK-16 and MK-23 rounds.

A detachment of 10th Fleets BCs and SDPs would have to be within missle range to enforce the surrender of course.

Mid-term, requisition some Moriarty platforms for the Mesa terminus and planet and lots of Havienite missle pods. That should be sufficiently effective defense for SLN threats, and they are in supply or can be built while Bolthole is retooled for building Grand Aliance weapon systems. That keeps most of 10th fleet free for other operations. I would be surprised if more Havenite weapons systems aren't deployed in support of Lacoön and Lacoön II. They may not be as good as Manticore's systems, but the production facilities are completely undamaged.

Mid-long term, replace Moriarty platforms with Mycroft. Assuming Mycroft can interface with Havinite missle pods (seems like a matter of software to me) then no need to change the Havienite pods for Alliance MK-23 pods.

Keep in mind the SLN hasn't yet truly been introduced to the dispersed missle pod and control platforms for system defense. They think they have in Spindle, but that wasn't Moriarty or Mycroft. Even if Mycroft is firing Havenite pods Mycroft still has FTL links to recon drones, and with Moriarty the FTL sensor data can be relayed from Manticorian Alliance ships to the Havinite Moriarty platforms in real time.

As for the captured hardware, there are only two uses for the Grand Aliance: scrap and diplomacy. Of the two, diplomacy will be more useful. Turn the captured SLN units over to the liberated Verge and Shell systems as the seed ships for their self defense forces. Even the new Mesa government will need a self defense fleet, and the former Solarian League worlds will have at least some of the infrastructure needed to support those ships. If the former SLN units cause any serious problems (such as turn pirate) they are just target practice for Grand Alliance units.

It won't take long to reinforce Talbott. Each of the component navies RMN GSN RHN toss in a squadron of SD(P) CLAC BC CA CL DD problem solved. Put a Havenite in command with Manti as the XO.

Also Henke didn't take all of her ships with her to Mesa. She left behind at least 12 carriers 8 heavy cruisers and probably a squadron or two of tin cans, plus Terikov TG at Mobius which IIRC has 1 carrier 4 heavy cruisers and a DesRon. Terikov will probably leave behind a couple of squadrons of LAC's and DesDiv plus a battalion of Marines as a temporary garrison.

I can't see Visigoth fighting the GA, period. Nobody who has been paying attention should do anything beyond "Yes, Sir!" or "Yes, Madam!" when given an order by a GA force. The GA has displaced the SLN as the 1000# gorilla--even if you can win the current battle you can't hope to win against what shows up in response.

Note that even the SLN itself recognizes that shooting at the GA is simply suicide.

munroburton wrote:
As for Visigoth being OFS territory... uhh, no. Textev is that it's a full League member(and has been for a LONG time - tell me when & how did Beowulf émigrés move to Mesa?), whose current President Roman Hitchcock is on the Renaissance Factor's heads-of-state board.

All I said in my previous post is, nothing stops Visigoth from having a few wallers. They certainly should be able to afford them too, after owning a two or three termini Junction for several centuries.

I stand slightly corrected, I had been sure the Visgoth-Mesa wormhole was part of just a bridge not an actual junction with more than one destination option.

Since Visigoth actually has an actual Junction, not a bridge, they're in more or less the same boat Manticore was in, and are likely to actually have a meaningful System-Defense Force, even as a full League member.


And Beowulf almost certainly has the spare 4 superdreadnoughts, we generally believe them to have. As I pointed out, they did have 36 outright, but if they were refitting the other 4, it's very possible even with month(s) of "this might happen" along with the actual month prior to needing them with the Admiral coming to meet with Beowulf specifically to petition for it... one only has to look at OBS and see how Pavel Young planned to be gone for between two and three months for "routine" overhaul that his officers didn't even bat an eyelash at signing off on agreeing that Warlock could use it.

Beowulf certainly wouldn't have run their maintenance cycles into the red, like Manticore did on the push for Trevor's Star, but if a 'routine' overhaul on a heavy cruiser can last for 2-3 months, than an SD will last just as long. And a mere 4 superdreadnoughts wouldn't have noticeably increased Beowulf's strength if/when they had to stand off against the SLN willing to fight, so why not continue the routine maintenance? After all, they did call in RMN forces, who they knew had an overwhelming superiority, so again why ruin a perfectly good overhaul, when your best friend could easily slice off 30 more SD's that are even better than the 4 you can rush out of the slip?


Off the cuff I'd guess now that Visigoth has around as much firepower as Beowulf has. The MWJ is far better known and larger than the Visigoth Junction, but due to the MAlign connection, they probably have a larger than expected Navy to play it's own part in the RF. Asserting it's right to secede from an obviously inept central government, and that it has a Junction to worry about defending when obviously the SLN cannot even defend itself means than Visigoth clearly has a need... and so on and so forth.

munroburton wrote:
As for Visigoth being OFS territory... uhh, no. Textev is that it's a full League member(and has been for a LONG time - tell me when & how did Beowulf émigrés move to Mesa?), whose current President Roman Hitchcock is on the Renaissance Factor's heads-of-state board.

All I said in my previous post is, nothing stops Visigoth from having a few wallers. They certainly should be able to afford them too, after owning a two or three termini Junction for several centuries.

Somtaaw wrote:I stand slightly corrected, I had been sure the Visgoth-Mesa wormhole was part of just a bridge not an actual junction with more than one destination option.

They've got a junction with two termini - Mesa and Ghatotkacha (Epsilon Virgo) in the Gupta Sector.

Somtaaw wrote:Since Visigoth actually has an actual Junction, not a bridge, they're in more or less the same boat Manticore was in, and are likely to actually have a meaningful System-Defense Force, even as a full League member.


And Beowulf almost certainly has the spare 4 superdreadnoughts, we generally believe them to have. As I pointed out, they did have 36 outright, but if they were refitting the other 4, it's very possible even with month(s) of "this might happen" along with the actual month prior to needing them with the Admiral coming to meet with Beowulf specifically to petition for it... one only has to look at OBS and see how Pavel Young planned to be gone for between two and three months for "routine" overhaul that his officers didn't even bat an eyelash at signing off on agreeing that Warlock could use it.

Beowulf certainly wouldn't have run their maintenance cycles into the red, like Manticore did on the push for Trevor's Star, but if a 'routine' overhaul on a heavy cruiser can last for 2-3 months, than an SD will last just as long. And a mere 4 superdreadnoughts wouldn't have noticeably increased Beowulf's strength if/when they had to stand off against the SLN willing to fight, so why not continue the routine maintenance? After all, they did call in RMN forces, who they knew had an overwhelming superiority, so again why ruin a perfectly good overhaul, when your best friend could easily slice off 30 more SD's that are even better than the 4 you can rush out of the slip?

Off the cuff I'd guess now that Visigoth has around as much firepower as Beowulf has. The MWJ is far better known and larger than the Visigoth Junction, but due to the MAlign connection, they probably have a larger than expected Navy to play it's own part in the RF. Asserting it's right to secede from an obviously inept central government, and that it has a Junction to worry about defending when obviously the SLN cannot even defend itself means than Visigoth clearly has a need... and so on and so forth.

No. We know for a fact that Mannerheim has the largest SDF in the RF, so Visigoth's is smaller. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they had a significant SDF as far as such things go.

Mission of Honor, Chapter 39 wrote:Stanley Hurskainen, the president of the Republic of Mannerheim, sat to Albrecht's right. He was a reassuringly solid presence, a hundred and ninety centimeters tall, with powerful shoulders, intense brown eyes, and dark, straight hair. No one could have been more cosmopolitan than he, yet he wore his hair in a wrist-thick braid that fell below his shoulders, like a throwback to some barbarian warrior ancestor. It should have struck the eye as anachronistic; instead, it suited him just as much—and just as inevitably, somehow—as his exquisite tailoring and perfect manicure. Which was probably appropriate, given that the Mannerheim System-Defense Force was far and away the most powerful of the Alignment's component navies.

Mission of Honor, Chapter 38 wrote:"If they ask you that, you admit the Sharks were originally intended primarily as prototypes and training vessels, and you don't pretend we have more of them than we do," Albrecht said promptly. "The last thing we need to do is to trip ourselves up by lying to these people—or to ourselves. But at the same time, I think you should point out to them that our plans always envisioned their 'system-defense forces' as the real basis of our joint naval strength, at least in the opening stages. There are eleven of them, for God's sake! None of them may be all that huge in isolation, but when you combine them, they get a hell of a lot more impressive. What the MAN represents at this stage is our hole card, the ace we have stuffed up our sleeve just in case we need it. I want them to be aware we have that card and that we can play it if we have to. And I'd like them to recognize that the fleet we're building will have exactly the same capabilities—only better—and be a hell of a lot bigger. I don't want them worrying about whether or not we'll be ready to take center stage as planned when the time comes just because we moved Oyster Bay ahead."

This doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence that we've got a bunch of planets each of which has several dozen superdreadnaughts.

Mannerheims got the most powerful of the RF SDF's, but that doesn't mean Visigoth has a virtually non-existant one. They've got the Junction to point to as a reason to have a more powerful than average SDF.

I pointed out earlier, Mannerheim has at least four Task Forces, and the fourth has at least a single dreadnought as it's flagship. Going purely speculative, and assuming equal forces and screen it's running upwards of four dreadnought squadrons, and an unknown strength for screen. Except that's not very powerful compared to Beowulf having four and a half superdreadnought squadrons + screen, and Mannerheim is also acknowledged as having "one of the most powerful SDF's in the LEAGUE" not just for the RF.

And if Mannerheim's both among the League's most powerful and the single most powerful in the RF, but Visigoth also has a wormhole and is part of the anti-Beowulf MAlign plans... Visigoth can't possibly have under a DN squadron or two. Still smaller than the notional Mannerheim SDF, but definitely going to be something creeping into "do you really need a fleet that powerful?" question range, if the SLN weren't so arrogant yet oh so clueless.

Somtaaw wrote:Mannerheims got the most powerful of the RF SDF's, but that doesn't mean Visigoth has a virtually non-existant one. They've got the Junction to point to as a reason to have a more powerful than average SDF.

I pointed out earlier, Mannerheim has at least four Task Forces, and the fourth has at least a single dreadnought as it's flagship. Going purely speculative, and assuming equal forces and screen it's running upwards of four dreadnought squadrons, and an unknown strength for screen. Except that's not very powerful compared to Beowulf having four and a half superdreadnought squadrons + screen, and Mannerheim is also acknowledged as having "one of the most powerful SDF's in the LEAGUE" not just for the RF.

And if Mannerheim's both among the League's most powerful and the single most powerful in the RF, but Visigoth also has a wormhole and is part of the anti-Beowulf MAlign plans... Visigoth can't possibly have under a DN squadron or two. Still smaller than the notional Mannerheim SDF, but definitely going to be something creeping into "do you really need a fleet that powerful?" question range, if the SLN weren't so arrogant yet oh so clueless.

Here's the thing. The statement that the Mannerheim SDF is one of the largest in the entire SL comes from Chapter 50 of Torch of Freedom, while the statement that none of them are all that big individually comes from Mission of Honor. This is a definite contradiction. Which one is likely to be correct? I'd take the one from MoH rather than the one from ToF, simply because the intent of the scenes is different. Looking at that, I'm not at all convinced that projecting the mention of one dreadnaught into four complete dreadnaught task forces is all that justified.

As far as Visigoth is concerned, it has a junction to protect, not a bunch of neighbors to boss around. Protecting a junction is best done with forts, not SDs. That's the way Manticore does it. Big, bad-assed forts.

JohnRoth wrote:Here's the thing. The statement that the Mannerheim SDF is one of the largest in the entire SL comes from Chapter 50 of Torch of Freedom, while the statement that none of them are all that big individually comes from Mission of Honor. This is a definite contradiction. ...

Not necessarily a contradiction.

I don't think any SDF is, "...all that huge in isolation..." That doesn't mean that they can't be 40-50 SDs+screen strong, just that they don't individually compare to the SLN in tonnage or numbers. It all depends on what you are comparing them to whether they are "all that huge" -- not huge in comparison to the SLN or any Haven Sector navy, but maybe "huge" in comparison to most SDFs.

At a guess, Mannerheim has 25%-50% more SDF than Beowulf and the rest of the Renaissance Factor has 10%-20% less SDF (each) than Beowulf.


Beowulf and the RF probably have 12-13 of the fifteen or twenty largest SDFs in the League.

Weird Harold wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:Here's the thing. The statement that the Mannerheim SDF is one of the largest in the entire SL comes from Chapter 50 of Torch of Freedom, while the statement that none of them are all that big individually comes from Mission of Honor. This is a definite contradiction. ...

Not necessarily a contradiction.

I don't think any SDF is, "...all that huge in isolation..." That doesn't mean that they can't be 40-50 SDs+screen strong, just that they don't individually compare to the SLN in tonnage or numbers. It all depends on what you are comparing them to whether they are "all that huge" -- not huge in comparison to the SLN or any Haven Sector navy, but maybe "huge" in comparison to most SDFs.

At a guess, Mannerheim has 25%-50% more SDF than Beowulf and the rest of the Renaissance Factor has 10%-20% less SDF (each) than Beowulf.


Beowulf and the RF probably have 12-13 of the fifteen or twenty largest SDFs in the League.

OK, let's see what RFC has to say about this:

Sometime after 11-08-01 RFC wrote:
The overwhelming majority of Verge systems see absolutely no reason to own/build wallers, anymore than other nations on present-day earth are building super carriers and Ohio-class SBMs. They are expensive as hell, they are not necessary to maintain security vis-a-vis any likely threat in their neighborhoods, and the extremely limited numbers they could build/buy would be useless against the only real superpower on the block.

...

Trust me, there are not going to be very many (if any) squadrons of wallers wandering around the Verge.

Sorry about not having a more accurate date, but I wasn't capturing dates and so forth when I captured this snippet.