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Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk
Post by WeberFan   » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:27 am

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PeterZ wrote:Merlin can't visit Thirsk because Merlin has to stay near Sidar City. Ahbraim follows Eastshare. Mabb is the best known seijin in the TL nations. Having him contact Thirsk does at least two things:
1) It sends a dual edged message. Mabb will ruthlessly dispense justice but he will not do so indiscriminately. Merlin defends against injustice but Mabb attacks it.
2) it allows Merlin to rehabilitate that part of him that he has given most fully to death and dealing death. Yes, dealing death is necessary but the cost is very high. By helping an enemy who allowed good friends to be tortured in a persona he has poured most of his anger into, he can begin to forgive. In forgiveness Merlin through Mabb can let some of that bottomless anger go and cease to fester in his soul.

I see something similar in the works that allows Merlin a gesture of forgiveness.


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your response, PeterZ. You state up front that "Merlin can't visit Thirsk because Merlin has to stay near Siddar City." I thought we were having this whole discussion because Merlin WAS meeting Thirsk ("We really should talk..."). Were you thinking of something different, or perhaps one of Merlin's other persona? I'm getting old and easily confused... :roll:
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:35 am

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WeberFan wrote:
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your response, PeterZ. You state up front that "Merlin can't visit Thirsk because Merlin has to stay near Siddar City." I thought we were having this whole discussion because Merlin WAS meeting Thirsk ("We really should talk..."). Were you thinking of something different, or perhaps one of Merlin's other persona? I'm getting old and easily confused... :roll:


A pox upon my lack of clarity! Yes, the Merlin persona cannot visit Thirsk regularly without triggering questions about how he travels about so quickly. He can visit as Mabb.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:17 pm

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PeterZ wrote:So, Mabb was not born in necessity to avoid having one persona pop up all over Safehold. No one alive would have been able to report what the killer looked like. Merlin could have killed the people on the barge in his own persona and no one would have known better.


Merlin was being careful not to hop between places too fast--the alternate personas are to have different people in different areas rather than reveal his transport capability.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk
Post by saber964   » Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:31 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
PeterZ wrote:So, Mabb was not born in necessity to avoid having one persona pop up all over Safehold. No one alive would have been able to report what the killer looked like. Merlin could have killed the people on the barge in his own persona and no one would have known better.


Merlin was being careful not to hop between places too fast--the alternate personas are to have different people in different areas rather than reveal his transport capability.



Nope he doesn't have to use one of his alternate personas. Remember he could be on a mission to see General Hanth's army which IIRC is 130 miles from the Dohlaren border. Now how hard would it be for a sejin to sneak across that distance cross the border sneak into Gorath and sneak out again.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk
Post by crucisnh   » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:51 pm

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saber964 wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:
Merlin was being careful not to hop between places too fast--the alternate personas are to have different people in different areas rather than reveal his transport capability.



Nope he doesn't have to use one of his alternate personas. Remember he could be on a mission to see General Hanth's army which IIRC is 130 miles from the Dohlaren border. Now how hard would it be for a sejin to sneak across that distance cross the border sneak into Gorath and sneak out again.


No, he always has to pay attention to the timing of his movements. He can't speak to Hanth at noon, and then hop on over to speak to Thirsk 130 miles away a couple hours later, and then hop on back to Siddar City hundreds of miles to the east and arrive in time for dinner, all while in the Merlin persona.

For that matter, if I recall properly, he also can't just grow lots of hair instantly on command. It takes time, and requires some attention to timing. If he shows up in a bare faced persona in one place, he has to allow himself enough time to regrow Merlin's mustaches and other hair before he reappears as Merlin elsewhere.

Frankly, it all sounds like a real mental juggling act just to keep everything straight.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk
Post by DMcCunney   » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:41 am

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While speculations on the conversation Merlin will have with Earl Thirsk are fun, I'm actually more curious about the conversations Thirsk will have in consequence with Bishop Maik.

We know Thirsk is thoroughly dismayed by what he's been required to do in Mother Church's service, aside from what it's cost him personally. He's been forced to sacrifice everything he holds dear, and see his own honor, his navy's honor, and the honor of his kingdom likely permanently stained by the actions he's been commanded to take. He has carried on only because he has sworn oaths, and it's been unthinkable to break them.

Now consider Bishop Maik. He's a Scheulerite and a member of the Inquisition. He's the Intendant for the Dohlaran Navy. He's also well aware of Thirk's feelings, but has been carefully protecting him as much as he can, knowing too well that Clyntahn wants Thirsk dead and only awaits a decent time to do it without undesirable fallout. We also have hints that Maik is less than happy about what his priestly superior and head of the Inquisition is doing, and may see only defeat and ruin and the permanent schism of Mother Church, if not its outright destruction, should things continue as they are now. He, too, has sworn personal oaths, in his case to Zhaspar Clyntahn.

The issue with solemn oaths it what happens when it's simply no longer possible to keep them.

I think Thirsk is already at that point, and the threat to his family was the only thing keeping him in line. Merlin will tell him that while the ship transporting them to Zion did indeed go down with all hands, his family was not aboard when it happened, because Merlin and a fellow Seijin got them off before it was sunk, and they are on their way to sanctuary in Tellesberg, under the protection of Emperor Cayleb and Empress Sharleyan. Thirsk is now free to act based on his conscience.

I don't see Thirsk not believing Merlin. What he already knows about Merlin is that whatever he is, Merlin isn't a liar, and wouldn't have taken the risk of seeing Thirsk in person just to tell him a lie. (For that matter, Thirsk will already be aware that whatever the Inquisition might say, the Empire of Charis has never lied in any public statements it has made, but he's well aware the Inquisition lies routinely. This will give additional weight to Merlin's arguments.)

The question is what Maik thinks at this point. Given the consistent defeats the forces of Mother Church have suffered in battle against the Empire of Charis, with a only few engagements against the ICN by the Dohlaran Navy that might count as victories, various folks within the Church as well as supporters without have to be wondering if God and the Archangels are really on their side, and if they are, why they haven't already intervened. And more than a few folks are drawing a distinction between Mother Church and Zhaspar Clyntahn, with the suspicion that perhaps, just perhaps, Clyntahn was mistaken in his claims of rampant heresy that must be countered, and that he is leading Mother Church and all of Safehold to ruin in consequence.

(More cynical and well placed observers have likely already come to the conclusion that it's really about power, and if his plans come to fruition. Zhaspar Clyntahn will be the absolute ruler of all of Safehold, supported by the power of the Inquisition. Emperors, Kings and Princes will merely reign, and do so only so long as they are properly obedient. Such observers can't be happy, though they will be quite, um, circumspect about voicing their suspicions.)

I don't see Thirsk concealing Merlin's visit from Bishop Maik. I think Thirsk's remaining honor will compel him to tell Maik that Merlin paid him a visit and what he said, and state "You've known for some time how I feel, yet you've supported me and protected me from your own superiors. I now know my family is safe, and I can do as my conscience bids me. I don't know yet what I might do, but I owe you the truth in return for how you've helped me. If you choose to turn me over the the Inquisition to face the Question and likely the Punishment, I'll understand, but I can no longer carry on as I have."

If Maik is as unhappy as he might be, admits it to Thirsk, and agrees that he can't continue to do what his superior commands, because it goes against the Writ and his vows as a priest, and he sees only ruin resulting, interesting things might result.

(I don't see a present need for continuing regular communication between Merlin and Thirsk. At the moment, a simple "Your family is safe, and you don't have to worry about them" will vastly relieve Thirsk. It will also make it less likely that he'll do anything that threatens Charis, since that's where his family will be. Merlin and company can then sit back to see what Thirsk might do. Whatever it is, I don't see it harming Charis. I do see it screwing over Clyntahn.)
______
Dennis
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk
Post by XofDallas   » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:45 am

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Dennis' post is intriguing, in that it factors Maik into the equation. I'm not going to quote his post here, as doing so would lengthen this post needlessly, but it is a thought-provoking post.

My initial thoughts are that it's unlikely Thirsk will confide in Maik immediately. The risk is too great compared to any reward there might be, and Thirsk is far too good a strategist and tactician to put himself at risk needlessly.

That being said, I do think Thirsk will, if he is able, take steps to see that Maik is out of the line of fire whenever the balloon does go up for the Dohlaran Navy, and then may let Maik know that his (Thirsk's) family is actually alive, well, and, most importantly, out of Clyntahn's reach.

To me, the ultimate point of rescuing Thirsk's family, and then telling him about it, is to give Thirsk back his free will.

Not only is it a sign of the respect Charis' leadership has for him, it's also an ultimate expression of the Church of Charis' teachings, namely, God has given man free will, and each man (and woman) has been freed to find God, or not, through his or her own free will, rather than through coercion.

Regardless of motives, though, my belief is we should always keep in mind what the point of Charis' entire exercise may be with respect to Thirsk. Thirsk's actions will flow more or less logically from that.

Finally, the timing of things should be relatively quick - a matter of five days, if not days. Clyntahn will immediately conclude that, lacking any significant hold over Thirsk, Thirsk now is a loose cannon who must be neutralized immediately, and he will take steps to do that.

The only steps Clyntahn will be able to take would be either to have Thirsk assassinated in some manner similar to that of Irys' father, or now to try to hold the men on the Prodigal Lass hostage, by immediately removing them to Zion.

My belief is, Clyntahn will attempt both of these things, and this will spur Thirsk into action against the Church, assuming he survives the forthcoming attempt on his life.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk
Post by n7axw   » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:39 am

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The thought of Maik detaching himself from the inquisition is fascinating. We don't have any direct pov stuff from Maik, but there are plenty of indirect hints pointing in that direction.

My impression is that the people aboard Prodigal Lass are already under inquisition control...hence already hostages.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk
Post by Dauntless   » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:44 am

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interesting and intriguing speculation

now just to add further to the the ideas.

what if Thirsk is saved by a Sejin? (probably some version of nimue rather then merlin) and then rallies the navy to his side which kicks off a coup and dolhar's withdrawal from the jihad?
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Re: Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:01 am

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n7axw wrote:The thought of Maik detaching himself from the inquisition is fascinating. We don't have any direct pov stuff from Maik, but there are plenty of indirect hints pointing in that direction.

My impression is that the people aboard Prodigal Lass are already under inquisition control...hence already hostages.

Don

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Maik as the political officer with a conscience is a theme we have seen before. I wonder if that theme will repeat? How else can the conflict between conscience and duty be reconciled than to follow one's conscience?

Ok, the answer to that one is easy. Let me rephrase, does Maik see his conscience forcing him to go through the existing CoGA hierarchy to effect the change we the reader knows he would like? We believe Maik does not agree with Clyntahn. Does he also believe that the only way to release Clyntahn's grip on the CoGA is to force internal change? This strain of thought resides in Rayno and his belief on the status quo. Why can it not exist in Maik?

If that is so, Maik may well fight to keep Charis from dictating whatever change is necessary for the CoGA. He may further believe that the schism that Charis represents must at some point be healed or crushed. Anything else would be an admission of failure to God and cost people their immortal souls.

God may well usher in the needed healing eventually, but those that admitted failure, that shed their responsibility to God and his children will be forever lost.

How will Maik jump, I wonder? Personally, I suspect more complexity regarding Dohlar's roll in ending this story arc and the set up for the next arc.
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