The fate of Carmichael

Duckk wrote:I think people overestimate the importance of placing embassies. It's not as if the United Kingdom has an embassy in each and every 50 states in the US. What the UK does have is a handful of consulate offices (which are different than embassies) at key population centers such that a UK citizen doesn't have to travel far to reach one. Likewise, I'm sure Manticore has consulate offices at sector capitals and other critical nodes, but isn't on literally every planet in the League.

There is a reference to local Manticoran trade and legal attaches in Storm in the Shadows when referencing the Manticoran response to then Captain Josef Byng's blatant harassment of Manticoran shipping: (Chapter 23 page 331). So obviously there is some network throughout the League although not at the higher diplomatic level.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Considering it, I'm surprised that the League has embassies anywhere. Battle Fleet operated as their embassy and OFS was their fleet of assistants.

Right or wrong, my off the cuff informed guess would be more 'par for the arrogant Solarian course.' Why would the invincible League who is in the habit of bending entire governments to their will think that they need an embassy. Embassies orchestrate diplomacy. Diplomacy is give on one side of the coin and take on the other. The League operates with a one-sided coin.

I'm not sure the League per se does have embassies anywhere.
Some consulate offices to handle routine trade items, or provide help for members of the various League worlds who may be nearby; maybe.

But an embassy means an Ambassador, who is empowered to act on diplomatic foreign policy. But the League, famously, doesn't really have a foreign policy. Members tend to use their Assembly vetoes to block any such ideas. What's the point of having an embassy if it can't work to implement to support a foreign policy?

Individual worlds may have foreign policy interest that they pursue as individuals (or theoretically in multi-system common trade consortium) - but none are willing to have some League wide policy that might infringe on their own rights to deal with (or ignore) systems outside the League.

The League really didn't need a foreign policy.

Yet, I seem to recall a rather pointed informal foreign policy that the RMN extracted from the computers of captured SLN ships detailing how to deal with errant star systems. The name escapes me, yet don't you think that that displaced the need for any such policy and was, in effect, their de facto foreign policy?


Divide and conquer is their informal foreign policy. What else does all of the traditional reasons of having a foreign policy demand other than this if you are a "lone wolf of an obese bully" and everyone else together are a buck-o-five soaking wet? That cuts to the chase and bypasses the middle man of foreign policy. On the one hand, foreign policy is all about manners. As we wave that hand politely to other countries, we can see our bigger geopolitical concerns written on the back.

OTOH, what are our objectives and how do we go about achieving those objectives and what will our disposition be towards our neighbors as we do it? What alliances shall we forge? What are our own domestic concerns that will shape that policy and what are the short and long term perceived external threats that should be considered, of ourselves and our allies?

NONE of these traditional concerns of a foreign policy apply to the League or any of those in between. They have no allies as they needed no allies. Their objectives aren't achieved by talking, but by taking. There are no external threats. Their domestic concerns are met by expansion. In effect, their implied foreign policy is "To conquer it is to dispense with the need of a foreign policy or its tool, diplomacy.

In fact, a foreign policy would have just gotten in the League's way.

And I'm sure the US has multiple war plans for invading China. That does not constitute a foreign policy. That's just good contingency planning.

I also remind you one of the Mandarins, Innokentiy Kolokoltsov, is the Permanent Undersecretary of Foreign Affairs. Since he's a Mandarin, his office must have a significant utility to the League's operation.

Also, read chapter 34 of AoV. There, one of the characters describes the official and unoffical foreign policies of the League.

Duckk wrote:And I'm sure the US has multiple war plans for invading China. That does not constitute a foreign policy. That's just good contingency planning.

No it doesn't. My apologies. I got a little carried away with my admonishment of the League government. Okay, a lot. Frankly, I don't understand it. It seems to be a government too big for its britches. No balance of powers and the President is only a figurehead.

Since my admonition is steeped in passion and since passion is long-lasting...

Your comparison is tepid at best. It is only good contingency planning in the face of an existing foreign policy. Contingency planning that would be metered and administered under our functioning foreign policy and diplomacy. Something that the League would never do.

I also remind you one of the Mandarins, Innokentiy Kolokoltsov, is the Permanent Undersecretary of Foreign Affairs. Since he's a Mandarin, his office must have a significant utility to the League's operation.

Too Significant of a utility.

I can't argue that the position is there Duckk, but the fact that one of the Mandarins wields its power relegates it to so much of the League's other dead letter acts.

For such ideals as a functioning foreign policy a Constitution has to enjoy a balance of power and checks and balances. Surely you are not suggesting that the League's government has either. I've seen no evidence there's even a functioning government. The foreign policy of the League's is what the Mandarins say it is. Heck, the Constitution of the League's is what the Mandarins say it is - that is how they were able to reinterpret Beowulf's obligation to them during Operation Raging Justice during peace.

Also, read chapter 34 of AoV. There, one of the characters describes the official and unoffical foreign policies of the League.

Thanks. I shall. I read in a thread some time ago the mention of a foreign policy but no reference. Your suggested reading must be it. Again, thanks.

Just a couple of things. The one clear mention (that I remember) of a SL 'consulate' was on Zunker, mentioned in A Rising Thunder:

The result was an official Solarian consulate in Effingham, Zunker’s capital city, an equally official OFS observation post right next door to it, and a clear understanding that although the League would be permitted influence in Zunker, it would not be allowed the sort of puppetmaster control it exercised in so many other “independent” star systems.

As for embassies, I worked with (but not part of) a US embassy in a Mideast country for 4 years, and it did employ several hundred people, many of them natives or non-american citizens (from India mostly) and yes, many American spouses of embassy members held jobs there. The military presence was not large (about 7-8 Marines). I can't speak for other Embassies, but this one seemed to be about average.

So I presume the Manticore Embassy probably had several hundred Manticore citizens and their families along with several hundred Sollies that worked there. I presume the Solarian citizens were let go (for their own safety--I wonder if any emigrated to Manticore rather than stay on Old Earth--and probably the civilians were shipped out sometime between Crandall and Lacoon II. That would leave a working core of maybe 70-80 folks (during the Iranian crisis in 1979, 52 diplomats were held). Those people are probably still there, presumably under the protection of the Beowulf embassy.

As to Carmichael and the Embassy staff eventual dispostion, here's a thought based on some of the above posts; send a Havenite passenger ship to pick them (and the Beowulf and Haven embassies) up, and oh, just in case, we're putting Tourville and 125 SD(P)'s just outside the 12 LM limit, just to see that they leave with no problems...

Hutch wrote:Just a couple of things. The one clear mention (that I remember) of a SL 'consulate' was on Zunker, mentioned in A Rising Thunder:

The result was an official Solarian consulate in Effingham, Zunker’s capital city, an equally official OFS observation post right next door to it, and a clear understanding that although the League would be permitted influence in Zunker, it would not be allowed the sort of puppetmaster control it exercised in so many other “independent” star systems.

As for embassies, I worked with (but not part of) a US embassy in a Mideast country for 4 years, and it did employ several hundred people, many of them natives or non-american citizens (from India mostly) and yes, many American spouses of embassy members held jobs there. The military presence was not large (about 7-8 Marines). I can't speak for other Embassies, but this one seemed to be about average.

So I presume the Manticore Embassy probably had several hundred Manticore citizens and their families along with several hundred Sollies that worked there. I presume the Solarian citizens were let go (for their own safety--I wonder if any emigrated to Manticore rather than stay on Old Earth--and probably the civilians were shipped out sometime between Crandall and Lacoon II. That would leave a working core of maybe 70-80 folks (during the Iranian crisis in 1979, 52 diplomats were held). Those people are probably still there, presumably under the protection of the Beowulf embassy.

As to Carmichael and the Embassy staff eventual dispostion, here's a thought based on some of the above posts; send a Havenite passenger ship to pick them (and the Beowulf and Haven embassies) up, and oh, just in case, we're putting Tourville and 125 SD(P)'s just outside the 12 LM limit, just to see that they leave with no problems...

I like that thought Hutch. And if I were calling the shots, I'd do something exactly like that. Yet, that leads us right back to my initial post. How reasonable would that be? It couldn't be anything but a bluff - unless the trouble happened off planet and somewhere out in space. Even so, wouldn't that exacerbate the problems facing Manticore even now and fall into the realm of counter productive as well?

A CALL TO ARMS

ARROGANT NEOBARBS INVADE SOLARIAN SPACE TO EVACUATE ITS MURDERERS!

STILL MORE INNOCENT SOLARIAN BLOOD ON NEOBARBARIAN HANDS

cthia wrote:

Duckk wrote:And I'm sure the US has multiple war plans for invading China. That does not constitute a foreign policy. That's just good contingency planning.

No it doesn't. My apologies. I got a little carried away with my admonishment of the League government. Okay, a lot. Frankly, I don't understand it. It seems to be a government too big for its britches. No balance of powers and the President is only a figurehead.

Since my admonition is steeped in passion and since passion is long-lasting...

Your comparison is tepid at best. It is only good contingency planning in the face of an existing foreign policy. Contingency planning that would be metered and administered under our functioning foreign policy and diplomacy. Something that the League would never do.

I also remind you one of the Mandarins, Innokentiy Kolokoltsov, is the Permanent Undersecretary of Foreign Affairs. Since he's a Mandarin, his office must have a significant utility to the League's operation.

Too Significant of a utility.

I can't argue that the position is there Duckk, but the fact that one of the Mandarins wields its power relegates it to so much of the League's other dead letter acts.

For such ideals as a functioning foreign policy a Constitution has to enjoy a balance of power and checks and balances. Surely you are not suggesting that the League's government has either. I've seen no evidence there's even a functioning government. The foreign policy of the League's is what the Mandarins say it is. Heck, the Constitution of the League's is what the Mandarins say it is - that is how they were able to reinterpret Beowulf's obligation to them during Operation Raging Justice during peace.

Also, read chapter 34 of AoV. There, one of the characters describes the official and unoffical foreign policies of the League.

Thanks. I shall. I read in a thread some time ago the mention of a foreign policy but no reference. Your suggested reading must be it. Again, thanks.

Actually the Pentagon does have plans to invade every country on the planet. It's called contingency planning. Now some of the plans once made sit in a filing cabinet and pretty much forgotten. Others are updated on a regular basis depending on how much of a pain in the butt any particular country is at the time. These plans range from embassy evacuation to full scale invasion. During the Soul Olympics in 88 the U.S. government deployed 2 CVBG's with a third close by waiting in the wings plus USS Missouri BG was operating in the Yellow Sea with New Jersey's BG operating with the Australian and New Zealand Navies and Iowa BG operating in the eastern Mediterranean. Just in case the North Korean's did something stupid and got a little frisky.

If the League had anything to do with the rumored ten million dead at Beowulf, I wonder if it was first telegraphed by barbarians at the Beowulf Embassy gate. Or, if Beowulf hadn't evacuated them by then, would extend the death count to include them as well?



Nearly time to go play good husband on vacation at my own lily pad across the pond with my wife's family. Why, because... that's... just... who... I... am. A good husband... or an obedient one.