Terms of Surrender (for the Mandarins)

Rincewind wrote:

Kytheros wrote:There are four fundamental points on which any comparison of the League's and pre-WW2 USA's situations collapse.
First, the relative tech imbalance. Oh, sure, the USA was a tech disadvantage in a lot of ways, but the differences were of degree, rather than kind - most of the tech differences were relatively incremental. They were at a point where quantity has a quality - they were close enough in quality that their massive advantage in quantity could and did overwhelm qualitative disadvantages. The SLN is years, if not decades, away from closing the technological gap to where their quantitative advantages can overcome their qualitative disadvantages. Even after that tech gap is closed enough, it's still another few years minimum to design and then build the first units utilizing that technology.
Second, the United States was never truly in serious danger of a major attack or invasion - it was too difficult for Japan or Germany to project more force than light raiding forces with limited time on station before needing to head home. And the US's industry was not seriously threatened. The GA can get to anywhere in the League it wants to get in whatever force it wants to send without any difficulties whatsoever.
Third, the United States was a unified nation-state, with a national identity, and a strong central government that had plenty of ability to raise funds. The League is not a nation, it is not united, its citizens identify with their home system/system of residence, and it does not have a strong central government. The League is in serious danger of fracturing and collapsing without anyone from the outside trying to make that happen, and both the MAlign and the GA are going to be putting a lot of effort into breaking up the League.
Fourth, the United States could send news, information, etc, anywhere within an extremely short period of time, and the information loop wasn't much longer - even for hardcopy documentation. The League takes weeks to months for one-way information travel, and the only shortcuts are the wormholes, which Laocoon II will have almost entirely closed off. Sol could get swallowed by a space monster tomorrow, and it would take months for the rest of the League to find out about it.




You can't really compare the League politically to any modern nation. The League is perhaps more of a loose alliance or confederation of city-states (representing individual systems) than anything else. A citizen of the League thinks of themselves first as a citizen of their homeworld/home system, the League second. Primary loyalties are not to the League.

We had this discussion on another topic when the Solarian League was compared with the EU as it is today. Certainly they have been trying to promote themselves as a single overarching Federal Government, with Federal Institutions. Yet that started as a Free Trade Association & only gradually morphed into becoming a Superstate much like the Solarian League.

As a point of how citizens of the Solarian League view it as their star nation in A Rising Thunder even Jacques Benton Ramirez y Chou referred to the Solarian League as his star nation.

The passage is as follows:

“That’s becoming a steadily more likely scenario,” he said grimly. “And that’s hard.” He shook his head, his expression sad. “I’ve known the League was rotten at the core for almost my entire life, but it was still the Solarian League. It was still the heir of all Mankind’s greatness, and for all its warts, it was still my star nation. And now this.” He shook his head again. “Now it looks like I'm going to be directly party to the actions which bring the whole tottering edifice crashing down. And I can’t be sure we’re not doing exactly what those Mesan bastards want us to be doing.”
(Italics my own)

A Rising Thunder Chapter 24 page 317.

pnakasone wrote:I would question if Jacques Benton Ramirez y Chou is a good example of the average person living in the SL.

Max wrote:I am probably going to have to re-read the whole Honorverse set. It's been too long and I've forgotten too many details.

That said, I still have an over-all impression that the SL is in the process of falling apart. It will eat itself up if left alone. The fleet will mutiny and fall on the member worlds like a pack of wolves. The only thing that has prevented that from happening is the fact that the fleet is packed in mothballs. Once it is unpacked, it will not be possible to keep it from being used against the easiest targets, and that set of targets is the old SL itself, not the GA.

So, the GA's best bet is to break to high speed links in the transportation network. That is, close the wormholes. With that done, you don't have a 10,000 lb. gorilla on your back, you have 20 500 lb gorillas getting in each others faces. Be a man with a saber in his hand. A pink here and there and a little artful dodging to redirect the few that come your way back into the general melee and you are very likely to survive...

Max

Max wrote:The only thing that has prevented that from happening is the fact that the fleet is packed in mothballs. Once it is unpacked, ...

Weird Harold wrote:The SLN under Adm Kingsford (after Rajampet's self-assassination) is NOT even going to attempt to take any of the reserve out of mothballs. They don't have the money or the crews in the first place, and the reserve ships are the wrong type for this war even if they had the money and crews.

Max wrote:They are the wrong type for fighting the GA, but somebody else could provide the money and crews for a really nasty pirate fleet operating in SL space...

chrisd wrote:The only terms of surrender for "The Mandarins" should be those offered to Germany and Japan.

Unconditional