The mandarins

I don´t understand the mandarins. You can say more or less their Actions till the battle of manticore is "Business as usuall"!

But after manticore they have in my eyes no other choice as to find a quick solution for the manticore problem.

What i am talking about?

Who are the Mandarins? Not the humans, their postions in their departments. Every leader Need the Support of loyal followers. in the case of the Mandarins Money and power is the key for the People who follow them.

After lacoon the whole economy in the league goes down. Taxes decrease and the part of it that finds the way into the Mandarins pocket too.

So, in my eyes the Mandarins have to fear, that someone else can take over their Position as leader of their departments if someone get more economic/power backup as them.

The manticorian freighters had a big amount of the Transport buisness in the league. The manticorian navy Close the wormhole "shortcuts".

The solarian´s have to replace the manticorian Transport capaticity and has to increase them to in compensation for the longer travell times.

You can´t do that from today to tomorrow and if the navy order also new ships the available ship building space would also decrease.

The most economic solution would be peace with manticore.

For the big solarian companies patriotism is patriotism and Money is Money.

I think the Mandarins should have a great amout of pressure from the People who cout in their eyes: "The rich and the mighty ones"!

Did you miss the scene where Solarian President Yeou called Kolokeltsev in for a quiet chat? Innokentiy, whilst dismissive of the Presidency, was acutely worried about the signal being sent by the Yeou family, owner of Yeou Transtellar Shipping.

Getting rid of the quintumvirate currently in charge isn't the problem - it is whom takes over after them. They face the same problems Kolokeltsev faces in governing the League and they have no better solutions. The bureaucrats all know this and that's paralyzing them for the moment.

Remember that the League crisis blew up very quickly.

October 1921 - Byng blows RMN DDs up. As far as the core is concerned, everything is still fine and has been for about 300 years.
November 1921 - Byng is blown up. Core doesn't hear about it until December or January.
February 1922 - Crandall is defeated, Lacoon is activated & Oyster Bay strikes(allegedly a deathblow to Manticore)
June 1922 - Filareta is defeated, alliance with Haven revealed & Beowulf prepares to leave the League

As for the "most economic solution" - remember, the League's bureaucracy and Transstellars have two primary revenue streams - shipping and protectorate exploitation(Ok, some transstellars obviously make and sell stuff - but they count as shippers). The shippers might consider cutting the Verge loose in the short term, but the looters will oppose that.

More likely, most of the Transstellars are deeply involved in both forms of operations and they want to return to the status quo of September 1921. Which is now impossible.

One issue is what did not happen as it was supposed too. Manticore was supposed to back down when face by the invincible might of Solarin League Navy.

Let's take a look at that timeline.

1921/2/21 Battle of Monica. The fallout from this gets Technodyne in a legal vise, and also affects the ISLN by indicting one of its major suppliers.

1921/04 Webster Assassination

1921/08 Meyers. The note from New Tuscany arrives; they decide to send Byng.

1921/10 New Tuscany Josef Byng destroys three Manticoran Destroyers (end of month)

1921/11/16 New Tuscany. Admiral Henke destroys Jean Bart, rendering Admiral Byng into rapidly dispersing plasma.

1921/11 Earth Sir Lyman Carmichael hand the Sollys a note about First New Tuscany.

1921/12 Earth They decide to dither.

1921/12 Manticore Public announcement of 1st New Tuscany. The Mandarins didn’t expect that.

1922/02 Spindle Battle of Spindle

1922/02 Oyster Bay

1922/03 Earth Discussion about Battle of Spindle

1922/03 Earth Planning to take advantage of Oyster Bay with Filaretta

1922/04 Earth discussions among the Mandarins

1922/06 Earth The Mandarins receive the news about the revelations about the Mesan Alignment. They don’t like it.

1922/06 Manticore 2nd Battle of Manticore, aka Filaretta’s Folly.

1922/06 Earth The mandarins don’t like that news either. Rajampet is out at Hyperion One

1922/06 Earth Admiral Rajampet commits suicide.

The crisis actually begins when the news about the Battle of Monica arrives, which is probably around March. The Mandarins don't realize they've got a real problem until they get handed that note about the New Tuscany Incident in November, however.

That's about eight months, max, between the first New Tuscany incident and Rajampet's suicide, which is the last bit we've seen on Earth to date.

Given interstellar communication distances, that's pretty fast.

Exactly what happens from that point on is a little speculative. The next thing we know happens, though, is

1922/11 Earth Mandarins learn that Manticore has taken over the Madras Sector, Meyers, Mesa and the Mesa end of the Visigoth - Mesa hyperbridge.

Presumably the Beowulf plebescite and the Battle of Beowulf happen in between. Planets begin seceding like dandruff. When Maya Sector secedes is unknown.

JohnRoth wrote:That's about eight months, max, between the first New Tuscany incident and Rajampet's suicide, which is the last bit we've seen on Earth to date.

You're missing Adm Kingsford's interview with Kolokolsov and Capt Gweon's briefing on the economic prognosis. There's a meeting of the Mandarins discussing Lacoon's effects and Rajampet's self-assassination, also.

JohnRoth wrote:Let's take a look at that timeline.

1921/2/21 Battle of Monica. The fallout from this gets Technodyne in a legal vise, and also affects the ISLN by indicting one of its major suppliers.

1921/04 Webster Assassination

1921/08 Meyers. The note from New Tuscany arrives; they decide to send Byng.

1921/10 New Tuscany Josef Byng destroys three Manticoran Destroyers (end of month)

1921/11/16 New Tuscany. Admiral Henke destroys Jean Bart, rendering Admiral Byng into rapidly dispersing plasma.

1921/11 Earth Sir Lyman Carmichael hand the Sollys a note about First New Tuscany.

1921/12 Earth They decide to dither.

1921/12 Manticore Public announcement of 1st New Tuscany. The Mandarins didn’t expect that.

1922/02 Spindle Battle of Spindle

1922/02 Oyster Bay

1922/03 Earth Discussion about Battle of Spindle

1922/03 Earth Planning to take advantage of Oyster Bay with Filaretta

1922/04 Earth discussions among the Mandarins

1922/06 Earth The Mandarins receive the news about the revelations about the Mesan Alignment. They don’t like it.

1922/06 Manticore 2nd Battle of Manticore, aka Filaretta’s Folly.

1922/06 Earth The mandarins don’t like that news either. Rajampet is out at Hyperion One

1922/06 Earth Admiral Rajampet commits suicide.

The crisis actually begins when the news about the Battle of Monica arrives, which is probably around March. The Mandarins don't realize they've got a real problem until they get handed that note about the New Tuscany Incident in November, however.

That's about eight months, max, between the first New Tuscany incident and Rajampet's suicide, which is the last bit we've seen on Earth to date.

Given interstellar communication distances, that's pretty fast.

Exactly what happens from that point on is a little speculative. The next thing we know happens, though, is

1922/11 Earth Mandarins learn that Manticore has taken over the Madras Sector, Meyers, Mesa and the Mesa end of the Visigoth - Mesa hyperbridge.

Presumably the Beowulf plebescite and the Battle of Beowulf happen in between. Planets begin seceding like dandruff. When Maya Sector secedes is unknown.

I don't remember reading anything about the mandarins finding out about those. Michelle stopped all the ships leaving the Meyers system, and as of the end of SoF the mystery fleet had only just arrived at Mesa, there was no mention of the Visigoth-Mesa hyper-bridge being interdicted.

Given the amount of time it would take for the information to reach the Sol system, the plebiscite could be done and dusted before the GA tell the mandarins about what happened in the Meyers System & Mesa.

Sorry, Forget the communication time in Honorverse.

George J. Smith wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:SNIP

Exactly what happens from that point on is a little speculative. The next thing we know happens, though, is

1922/11 Earth Mandarins learn that Manticore has taken over the Madras Sector, Meyers, Mesa and the Mesa end of the Visigoth - Mesa hyperbridge.

Presumably the Beowulf plebescite and the Battle of Beowulf happen in between. Planets begin seceding like dandruff. When Maya Sector secedes is unknown.

I don't remember reading anything about the mandarins finding out about those. Michelle stopped all the ships leaving the Meyers system, and as of the end of SoF the mystery fleet had only just arrived at Mesa, there was no mention of the Visigoth-Mesa hyper-bridge being interdicted.

Given the amount of time it would take for the information to reach the Sol system, the plebiscite could be done and dusted before the GA tell the mandarins about what happened in the Meyers System & Mesa.

It's a given the Mandarins will hear about the Visigoth Junction no longer receiving traffic from the Mesa terminus even if the VWJ itself is not taken. They might get a report of hostile capital ships arriving in Mesa, from civilian traffic using the Mesa terminus to leave at that moment.

These won't be informed about what's happened to the Meyers sector, though. According to the big map, Meyers is further away from Mesa than Haven is from Manticore(without the Trevor's Star shortcut!). Given the differences in civilian and military hyper generators, Tenth Fleet long overtook any merchant traffic carrying messages of the Meyers incident.

A simple blockade of the Mesa terminus can therefore delay Sol being notified of transpired events for a further three months - and that's if the message-carrying ship makes no stops along the way.

Reminds me about an old comedy skit by Irish comedian Dave Allen.
Centurion in tent dictating to a scribe that the Legions are being overrun by the Huns who have developed new weapons. He concludes that the message may be too late getting to Rome to save the Empire because of the long communication time. Scribe leaves tent, then horse heard rapidly departing. Moments later, NAZI Storm Troopers burst in with Schmeissers and gun him down.

The communication lag will doom this empire as well.

JohnRoth wrote:SNIP

Exactly what happens from that point on is a little speculative. The next thing we know happens, though, is

1922/11 Earth Mandarins learn that Manticore has taken over the Madras Sector, Meyers, Mesa and the Mesa end of the Visigoth - Mesa hyperbridge.

Presumably the Beowulf plebescite and the Battle of Beowulf happen in between. Planets begin seceding like dandruff. When Maya Sector secedes is unknown.

George J. Smith wrote:
I don't remember reading anything about the mandarins finding out about those. Michelle stopped all the ships leaving the Meyers system, and as of the end of SoF the mystery fleet had only just arrived at Mesa, there was no mention of the Visigoth-Mesa hyper-bridge being interdicted.

Given the amount of time it would take for the information to reach the Sol system, the plebiscite could be done and dusted before the GA tell the mandarins about what happened in the Meyers System & Mesa.

munroburton wrote:It's a given the Mandarins will hear about the Visigoth Junction no longer receiving traffic from the Mesa terminus even if the VWJ itself is not taken. They might get a report of hostile capital ships arriving in Mesa, from civilian traffic using the Mesa terminus to leave at that moment.

These won't be informed about what's happened to the Meyers sector, though. According to the big map, Meyers is further away from Mesa than Haven is from Manticore(without the Trevor's Star shortcut!). Given the differences in civilian and military hyper generators, Tenth Fleet long overtook any merchant traffic carrying messages of the Meyers incident.

A simple blockade of the Mesa terminus can therefore delay Sol being notified of transpired events for a further three months - and that's if the message-carrying ship makes no stops along the way.

Given that it's Tenth Fleet, Michelle isn't going to stop properly certified news couriers from transiting. The Mantacorans are sticklers for that kind of thing. She's also going to announce the legal basis for her attack on Mesa, and she's going to take over that end of the hyper bridge.

She isn't going to do an attack on Visigoth through the wormhole. That dead horse has been flogged into a pulp in discussions about the Torch wormhole.