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Re: The fate of Carmichael | |
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by saber964 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:16 pm | |
saber964
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Whose to say that SEM doesn't have contingency plans. What is the ambassador received instructions to go to the Beowulf Delegation and seek temporary shelter. I'm thinking that the Ballroom (Torch) has a few agents in place, along with BCIA. They could have ways into Chicago's old city were Carmichael & Co and could hide for months without being noticed before smuggling them all off world.
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Re: The fate of Carmichael | |
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by cthia » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:49 pm | |
cthia
Posts: 14951
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Forgot to post this in support of your post. Initially I couldn't quite remember the details. Then, one call to my sister and she rattled it off like it was an item on her shopping list. She hates sci-fi but eats history for lunch...
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... -evacuated As your post states, lots of peripherals and incidentals to evacuate. Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense |
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Re: The fate of Carmichael | |
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by cthia » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:55 pm | |
cthia
Posts: 14951
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Well, I hope Anton Zilwicki's in on it. Perhaps we'll get that "much bigger hole in the ground" this time that Helen warned us about. Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense |
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Re: The fate of Carmichael | |
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by Ed130 The Vanguard » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:59 am | |
Ed130 The Vanguard
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I rather doubt that, a Green Pines style attack on Chicago or even a deep raid in order to pull out Carmichael would be propaganda gold for the Mandarins. If they were to order the ambassador's arrest a quiet extraction would be the order of things and ultimately be more damaging than a bomb. "Oh Ambassador Carmichael? The man you whipped Chicago into a frenzy with one of the biggest manhunts in Earth history? He's was deployed to Beowulf last week." An impotent League is a weak League. |
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Re: The fate of Carmichael | |
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by cthia » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:56 am | |
cthia
Posts: 14951
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Actually, I meant it as a joke. Hence, the giggly face. Though, you have to admit that it'd really be funny, as a reader, if a monstrous hole is left by Zilwicki and we ended up with a timely accompanying one-liner by Helen... "Now that is a Zilwicki hole!" ... ... ... ... (oh make it stop.) Ahem, now that you've turned on the front burner, as is the case of the US, wouldn't it be the policy of Manticore to have Manticoran protection on planet to protect its embassy? Wouldn't a Manticoran embassy be considered Manticoran soil? Hence, the Manticoran - and in the case of Beowulf, Beowulfan - flags flying? The rabbit hole that thought leads into is that it wouldn't be an attack on Old Chicago, but a defensive military stance on Manticoran soil (whereupon sits the Manticoran embassy and its flag), no? I am imagining, also using our own US policy as a schematic, that the onus of the safety of Embassy nationals falls on the shoulders of our own Secretary of State, yet is usually shared by the host country (or in this case planet). And if the host country (planet) isn't willing to provide that protection, then contingencies are emplaced by the foreign nationals to do so on their own. If Old Chicago really are unwilling or unable to provide that protection... as it seems to be indicated in this passage... ...then Manticore would be negligent and lacking in failing to provide their own security. Aren't foreign flags emplaced at embassies to denote foreign soil? How far does the League's unsupport of the interstellar convention to repatriate ambassadors go? I don't get the feeling that they have denied Manticore from its own contingency or responsibility to provide their own security on planet as would 'normally' be allowed (as the passage indicating that the League has never had to deal with this because no one has ever dared attack them - a lack of precedent.) FYI: A schematic of our Secretary of State's MO to secure US embassies. http://www.state.gov/m/ds/about/overview/c9004.htm Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense |
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Re: The fate of Carmichael | |
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by Weird Harold » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:37 am | |
Weird Harold
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Now that Haven is an ally, there's a significant RH Army presence if From the Highlands can be believed. There's no mention of demonstrations at the Havenite embassy or any sort of details about Havenite contingency plans; Perhaps the Havenite embassy will wind up rescuing both Manticore's and Beowulf's embassies when things get worse. .
. . Answers! I got lots of answers! (Now if I could just find the right questions.) |
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Re: The fate of Carmichael | |
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by Somtaaw » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:09 am | |
Somtaaw
Posts: 1204
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Carmichael moved into the Beowulf embassy with seemingly zero fuss over moving a large amount of people. And given the mechanics of hyper travel, having large embassies anymore is almost counter-productive, anything you can do with an official ambassador and perhaps a dozen aides is all you need. A few clerks to handle paperwork filing, since that's a little more specialist than generic aide is. Call it no more than two dozen for the official staff of the embassy, that would rise considerably depending on how many brought their families with them.
Although on balance, I could almost see how Carmichael and the rest of the embassy bundled their families off planet before now, certainly by the time Filareta was scheduled to have arrived in Manticore. They may have remained to at least try to inject sense into the League, but they wouldn't be risking their families too, and since that coincidentally also drastically cuts down on the number of evacuee's later, it's a two-fer. Manticoran ground troops wouldn't really help much, if they have any guards at all, I figure it's in the same minimalist approach to the embassy staff, I'm figuring somewhere between a squad to a platoon (sans heavy weapons) at a maximum. Haven had a much larger one, but they were also hiding special ops types among their embassy so having a much larger official staff helped hide that. Currently the Mandarins are also trying to ooze sympathy that Haven is merely an unwitting dupe in the Manticoran Grand Alliance, so they haven't focused much if any anti-Haven propaganda yet. |
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Re: The fate of Carmichael | |
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by Duckk » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:40 am | |
Duckk
Posts: 4200
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That seems like a non sequitor to me. Today, we can get to nearly any point on the planet in 24 hours, and we have a communications grid that lets us communicate and send data instantaneously. Yet we still have embassies that range in the hundreds of personnel to handle stuff locally. In the Honorverse, where communications lags can be measured in weeks or even months, you don't want to constantly "call home" unless you really need to. Hence, a large team of people for local support. Additionally, embassies aren't necessarily just the diplomat and his or her aides. Embassies in major countries serve as liaison points for economic, cultural and scientific activities. For something as big and important as the Solarian League, Manticore would have hundreds of personnel operating out of their embassy: media and public relations teams, business liaisons, experts on international law, and more. That's not to say they haven't shipped all non-essential personnel back to Manticore by the end of ART, but there nominally would be a lot more people operating the embassy. -------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope |
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Re: The fate of Carmichael | |
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by npadln » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:55 pm | |
npadln
Posts: 214
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It seems the crux of the problem as stated here is that having an Ambassador remain in enemy territory past his "intelligence" usefulness, is that he keeps the lines of communication open. But is that really necessary? If the SL wanted to reach out to the GA surely they would find a way. And as far as intelligence gathering isn't it pretty much passive intelligence gathering now; something that could easily be accomplished by someone of less prominence?
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Re: The fate of Carmichael | |
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by Duckk » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:05 pm | |
Duckk
Posts: 4200
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Nations don't recall ambassadors unless things get really serious. It doesn't have any significant practical effect (assuming the rest of the embassy remains open), but it does have major political meaning. It's effectively saying, "we think talking to you right now is a waste of time."
As it applies to this particular situation, leaving Carmichael on Sol is an indication that Manticore is willing to negotiate up to the last possible minute. They're leaving the door open for any last minute outbreak of sanity on the Sollies' part. -------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope |
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