Shame on all versions of Niume

Rereading the series I was struck by the lack of concern with a hearing safety.

Stuffing cotton balls or fingers in your ears is totally inadequate protection against any loud noise. Cotton wads provide only 7 decibels (dB) of noise protection which is good against rustling leaves which is 10 dB. The scale is logarithmic. Conversational speech is around 50 dB. Anything above 90 requires protection if experienced for long enough. A belt sander at 103 if used for more than 7.5 minutes can damage hearing. By the time you get to 120 dB (up close to an ambulance siren) you will experience pain and the immediate chance of damage. A firecracker is 150 dB.

While the age old practice of covering your ears, turning away, and opening your mouth can help a crew firing their guns it is not adequate protection, especially in an unit.

Artillery crews at least should be issued suitable ear protection, especially the ironclad crews. Niume should know better.

"All that glitters is not gold"
Laenole

Laenole wrote:Rereading the series I was struck by the lack of concern with a hearing safety.

Stuffing cotton balls or fingers in your ears is totally inadequate protection against any loud noise. Cotton wads provide only 7 decibels (dB) of noise protection which is good against rustling leaves which is 10 dB. The scale is logarithmic. Conversational speech is around 50 dB. Anything above 90 requires protection if experienced for long enough. A belt sander at 103 if used for more than 7.5 minutes can damage hearing. By the time you get to 120 dB (up close to an ambulance siren) you will experience pain and the immediate chance of damage. A firecracker is 150 dB.

While the age old practice of covering your ears, turning away, and opening your mouth can help a crew firing their guns it is not adequate protection, especially in an unit.

Artillery crews at least should be issued suitable ear protection, especially the ironclad crews. Niume should know better.

"All that glitters is not gold"
Laenole

People have gotten along for centuries without proper hearing protection. But what Merlin is doing by having cotton or fingers stuffed into there ears is the disruption of the shock wave, which does most of the damage to a person's hearing for gun crews. Also we don't know if the gun crews have hearing protection. By modern-day standards they are fairly primitive in concept. Also naval battles of the time frame were not broadside after broadside. They were broadside maneuver 1-3 broadsides maneuver more broadsides. It wasn't uncommon for a battle to last several hours of maneuver and counter maneuver before a few sharp broadsides decided the matter.

Decibels is the measure of the shock wave energy. It is at a level that can produce immediate damage from one gun firing.

People have been putting up with loud noises for ages. They have also been losing their sense of hearing for ages. Ear protectors are pretty simple and effective.

According to MHSHA (the mine safety org), the level of noise from artillery would be at a level that would cause exclusion of all humans even with ear protection. I am a miner.

Obviously, Charis has to use artillery. Niume should be aware of safety proticals and get protection manufactured. It would use no resources critical to military needs.

Cotton balls only reduce the pressure 7 dB. So they are almost totally useless. Also unless form fitting the pressure wave gets around the edges.

I am so glad we're applying 21st Century U.S. OSHA standards to an army equipped with circa 19th Century technology that's also in the middle of a jihad which was touch and go for a very long time.

Post by XofDallas » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:15 pm

I am so glad we're applying 21st Century U.S. OSHA standards to an army equipped with circa 19th Century technology that's also in the middle of a jihad which was touch and go for a very long time

No I am applying a 20th Century safety standard to a 24th Century personality. Remember, Merlin considered the safety aspect of using asbestos as the felt for the breach loading rifle. I think his decision on asbestos use was a reasonable risk reward one.

The hearing damage by artillery can be mitigated by ear muffs that would currently cost around $20.

Perhaps because of the jihad Charis should rescind its child labor laws?

Laenole

Laenole wrote:Post by XofDallas » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:15 pm

I am so glad we're applying 21st Century U.S. OSHA standards to an army equipped with circa 19th Century technology that's also in the middle of a jihad which was touch and go for a very long time

No I am applying a 20th Century safety standard to a 24th Century personality. Remember, Merlin considered the safety aspect of using asbestos as the felt for the breach loading rifle. I think his decision on asbestos use was a reasonable risk reward one.

The hearing damage by artillery can be mitigated by ear muffs that would currently cost around $20.

Perhaps because of the jihad Charis should rescind its child labor laws?

Laenole

I have to agree with XofDallas here you are applying an unreasonable standard of safety here. Even in WW11 german infantry were trained to fire a MG42 over the shoulder of a comrade. Now there is something guaranteed to do permanent hearing damage but it was obviously worth it for the soldiers and army to risk this in order to defeat their enemies.

You can live with deafness, you can't live with lung cancer which is why asbestos makes a poor comparison point for your argument.

PS what materials are you going to use to make these earmuffs? remember you have cotton and leather and I doubt they want to spend precious spring steel in making the head clip for these ear muffs in order to give the good fit needed to be effective. Also what are you using as your filler given the total lack of a petrochemical industry or synthetic sponges to make the acoustic absorbing foam. Does Safehold have sponges? I can't remember anything in the books and even then they generally would need to be wet to work well as sound deadening.

Post by Silverwall » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:03 pm

You can live with deafness, you can't live with lung cancer which is why asbestos makes a poor comparison point for your argument.

PS what materials are you going to use to make these earmuffs? remember you have cotton and leather and I doubt they want to spend precious spring steel in making the head clip for these ear muffs in order to give the good fit needed to be effective. Also what are you using as your filler given the total lack of a petrochemical industry or synthetic sponges to make the acoustic absorbing foam. Does Safehold have sponges? I can't remember anything in the books and even then they generally would need to be wet to work well as sound deadening.

Yes but asbestos is only really dangerous when in less than mm particles and breathed in. The cartridges present minimum risk before firing as long as they are whole. After firing, they are only around the firer for a minimum amount of time. They probably do represent a long term risk for people who subsequently live in the area if particles from them become airborne.

As for construction technique for ear muffs, use a bow wood for the spring steel. You would only have to make a weak "bow". The main protection they provide is from the hard outer shell that stops the pressure wave. This could be made from a gourd or wood. The fit to the head could be cotton battening in a hide or treated linen. Any lining would probably need experimentation, but I could see some combination of a cotton fill with hot wax poured in to keep it in place. The inner lining is to dampen any sound generated by the outer shell. I am not an acoustic engineer and can not tell you what would work best.

BTW. My real objection is the mention of people with cotton balls in there ears thanking them for dampening the sound as the Captain of the river ironclad barge in MTAT. This could get DW in trouble if some idiot beleives him.

Laenole

I can agree with Laenole that there could have been better ear protection against loud noise... But shame on Nimue??? C'mon, let's remember that it's really RFC we are talking about here. The various incarnations of Nimue are really his creation. He give us an inordinate amount of detail along with an interesting story line. Isn't it a bit much to expect him to get EVERYTHING right?

I suggest simply settling back and enjoying a story told by a master craftsman and letting it go at that

Don

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On further thought, protection could be mounted on a cotton strap that ties below the chin. It could be belted for universal fit.

Laenole

Laenole wrote:

Post by Silverwall » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:03 pm

You can live with deafness, you can't live with lung cancer which is why asbestos makes a poor comparison point for your argument.

PS what materials are you going to use to make these earmuffs? remember you have cotton and leather and I doubt they want to spend precious spring steel in making the head clip for these ear muffs in order to give the good fit needed to be effective. Also what are you using as your filler given the total lack of a petrochemical industry or synthetic sponges to make the acoustic absorbing foam. Does Safehold have sponges? I can't remember anything in the books and even then they generally would need to be wet to work well as sound deadening.

Yes but asbestos is only really dangerous when in less than mm particles and breathed in. The cartridges present minimum risk before firing as long as they are whole. After firing, they are only around the firer for a minimum amount of time. They probably do represent a long term risk for people who subsequently live in the area if particles from them become airborne.

As for construction technique for ear muffs, use a bow wood for the spring steel. You would only have to make a weak "bow". The main protection they provide is from the hard outer shell that stops the pressure wave. This could be made from a gourd or wood. The fit to the head could be cotton battening in a hide or treated linen. Any lining would probably need experimentation, but I could see some combination of a cotton fill with hot wax poured in to keep it in place. The inner lining is to dampen any sound generated by the outer shell. I am not an acoustic engineer and can not tell you what would work best.

BTW. My real objection is the mention of people with cotton balls in there ears thanking them for dampening the sound as the Captain of the river ironclad barge in MTAT. This could get DW in trouble if some idiot beleives him.

Laenole

Actually the last thing you want is a hard outer shell as that will easily transmit the concussion, the shell is there to stop the actual acoustic foam from falling out onto the floor. It is the foam structure disrupting/reflecting the wave that is the real deal in terms of reducing sound intensity.

As for people believing RFC!! why is this an issue? What he describes is 100% historically realistic for the tech of his society so if people get follow his example and hurt themselves then I guess we should also blame all the movie makers making shows set in the wooden ships and iron men era E.g. Pirates of the Caribbean.