Defensive pods

munroburton wrote:

Rakhmamort wrote:BTW, I don't believe that very short limit on tractors that you have been pushing. If a battlecruiser's tractors can drag a LAC for several days through hyperspace, then I'm quite sure that pods inside wedges would have less stress on them and that would mean longer endurance.

The issue he's referring to isn't tractor endurance. It's power-supply endurance - in order to use their integrated tractor beams, the pods have to fire up their onboard fusion reactor. And then the clock is ticking until it runs out of reaction mass - which RFC has implied is only good for a few days at most.

Quite a different matter when the BC was using its onboard tractors, powered by its numerous reactors and substantial fuel capacity. Not to mention, warships in hyperspace get free power via the wedge/sails - a happy condition that does not apply to pods under any circumstances.

Very true; though additionally I'd note that even over just a couple days continuous usage Thunder of God burned out one of it's tractors because "The components were never intended for this sort of continual power level, Captain. They have to strip it clear down to the flux core to make replacements."

And since ship tractors were designed to be able to tow entire starships I don't think it was the LAC's tonnage that cause the issue; it seems like it must have been the continual usage that did it. And that's a shipboard tractor that's probably more robustly built than one squeezed into a pod (since you know the pod will be expended or pulled in for refurbishing after a couple of days or tractoring itself). Even shipboard tractors do not appear to ever be used to tow pods on week+ deployments; which hints that even with unlimited power and ship-grade tractors that there likely are endurance or operational limits to towing around pods for more than the few days that tactical situations require.



Logically it seems like it should be easy enough to design a beamed power, power cord and/or physical mount to get around all these limits. But because nobody in the Honorverse has (except for the Andie bolted on half-pods), and I work under the default assumptions that their engineers and designers aren't all idiots, I presume there's some not yet disclosed reason why it's not possible (or at least not worth it)

munroburton wrote:The "power cord" argument has strong merits but does not solve problem of limpeted pods being activated and using their limited fuel up - you'd need a podlayer, ammo ship or to add external refuelling points to every ship.

Ammo ship required.... Well No Shit. Where the Hell do you think ammo/pods comes from? Out of the poles of Black holes? Or space hampsters with red hats, jingle bells, and a space sleigh pulled by treecats?

There is no problem with communications unless you are going to argue that a ship cannot communicate with its pods currently...

There is no need for refueling points as NO FUEL IS BEING USED.

Jonathan_S wrote:Logically it seems like it should be easy enough to design a beamed power, power cord and/or physical mount to get around all these limits. But because nobody in the Honorverse has (except for the Andie bolted on half-pods), and I work under the default assumptions that their engineers and designers aren't all idiots, I presume there's some not yet disclosed reason why it's not possible (or at least not worth it)

Logically you are 100% correct until: the addition of the onboard tractor. This places the pods externally in a fight and also more importantly allows light ships to possibly not have to use all of their pods in an initial salvo as was traditionally done. Why? They can carry a LOT more of them now. For extended patrols I could see this as productive addition to a ship. Counter argument, is that if such a small threat exists then one should not have expensive pods externally at all. If such a big threat exists for so many pods, the probability that you would NOT need to use all of those pods is fairly slim.

In short it breaks down to: efficiency in terms of $$$. To stow pods externally for longer periods of time is imminently doable, but costs $$$ not only in additional ship hull cost but also in maintenance. Also, yes, gives a giant offensive punch, but in many circumstances, it is not offensive punch that is required in new designs, but rather much better defensive capabilities.

$$$ is not infinite. At some point KISS, is superior.

So, I could see CA's having this ability on their hulls, but not any other class other than CL maybe. IE go on an independent 600LY patrol requiring months without outside ammo ship or base support.

munroburton wrote:I don't know. I didn't make up the rules of the Honorverse. The explanation is probably handwavium - something like the mass or surface area required for beamed power transmitters/receivers would cost too much to be effective and pods have fundamental dimensional limits - a receiver might require the sacrifice of another missile per pod, for example. As for transmitters, how many PDLCs or sensors etc. will you need to sacrifice from the warship, bearing in mind there may be 20, 50 or even more pods limpeted on, requiring multiple transmitters(although they could certainly share transmitters)?

The "power cord" argument has strong merits but does not solve problem of limpeted pods being activated and using their limited fuel up - you'd need a podlayer, ammo ship or to add external refuelling points to every ship.

I don't really want to wade into the heart of this argument - was just pointing out that a BC's tractoring endurance is irrelevant to pods.

Understandable because most of the literature talks about built in tractors for pods and they have to be powered. I don't know how large the onboard-pod tractors are but I'm sure that using old tech electromagnets would require less space.

As for beamed power, nobody knows how it happens, we just know everybody can do it.

Call it handwavium or whatever, if David will accept this as a reasonable/usable item in his universe, the engineers will manage to build it.

Rakhmamort wrote:

munroburton wrote:I don't know. I didn't make up the rules of the Honorverse. The explanation is probably handwavium - something like the mass or surface area required for beamed power transmitters/receivers would cost too much to be effective and pods have fundamental dimensional limits - a receiver might require the sacrifice of another missile per pod, for example. As for transmitters, how many PDLCs or sensors etc. will you need to sacrifice from the warship, bearing in mind there may be 20, 50 or even more pods limpeted on, requiring multiple transmitters(although they could certainly share transmitters)?

The "power cord" argument has strong merits but does not solve problem of limpeted pods being activated and using their limited fuel up - you'd need a podlayer, ammo ship or to add external refuelling points to every ship.

I don't really want to wade into the heart of this argument - was just pointing out that a BC's tractoring endurance is irrelevant to pods.

Understandable because most of the literature talks about built in tractors for pods and they have to be powered. I don't know how large the onboard-pod tractors are but I'm sure that using old tech electromagnets would require less space.

As for beamed power, nobody knows how it happens, we just know everybody can do it.

Call it handwavium or whatever, if David will accept this as a reasonable/usable item in his universe, the engineers will manage to build it.

Beaming of power (using microwaves) has been done in the real world, so it's not completely handwavium. Wireless power transfer

The entire hull of the ship is inside the compensator, so the skin is in zero g. You could Velcro the pods to the skin and they would stay there until the compensator fails, at which point nobody cares what happens to the pods.

kzt wrote:The entire hull of the ship is inside the compensator, so the skin is in zero g. You could Velcro the pods to the skin and they would stay there until the compensator fails, at which point nobody cares what happens to the pods.

...As long as the entire pods are also entirely enclosed by the compensator field. Otherwise the "dangling" portion will rip it off (pretty much independant of the mounting technique....)

Relax wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Logically it seems like it should be easy enough to design a beamed power, power cord and/or physical mount to get around all these limits. But because nobody in the Honorverse has (except for the Andie bolted on half-pods), and I work under the default assumptions that their engineers and designers aren't all idiots, I presume there's some not yet disclosed reason why it's not possible (or at least not worth it)

Logically you are 100% correct until: the addition of the onboard tractor. This places the pods externally in a fight and also more importantly allows light ships to possibly not have to use all of their pods in an initial salvo as was traditionally done. Why? They can carry a LOT more of them now. For extended patrols I could see this as productive addition to a ship. Counter argument, is that if such a small threat exists then one should not have expensive pods externally at all. If such a big threat exists for so many pods, the probability that you would NOT need to use all of those pods is fairly slim.

In short it breaks down to: efficiency in terms of $$$. To stow pods externally for longer periods of time is imminently doable, but costs $$$ not only in additional ship hull cost but also in maintenance. Also, yes, gives a giant offensive punch, but in many circumstances, it is not offensive punch that is required in new designs, but rather much better defensive capabilities.

$$$ is not infinite. At some point KISS, is superior.

So, I could see CA's having this ability on their hulls, but not any other class other than CL maybe. IE go on an independent 600LY patrol requiring months without outside ammo ship or base support.

You have justify things to the bean counters who are noted to have neither imaginations or senses of humor.

Strap on pods I feel is sort of an interim solution of giving older ship designs extra fire power until you can build their replacements.

Vince wrote:Beaming of power (using microwaves) has been done in the real world, so it's not completely handwavium. Wireless power transfer

True, but the specifics are not defined in Honorverse. Where are the receivers as well as projectors. How many projectors does a ship have, how much power can be beamed into a decoy or a pod or anything. Do pods have receivers already built into them? etc.

Rakhmamort wrote:

Vince wrote:Beaming of power (using microwaves) has been done in the real world, so it's not completely handwavium. Wireless power transfer

True, but the specifics are not defined in Honorverse. Where are the receivers as well as projectors. How many projectors does a ship have, how much power can be beamed into a decoy or a pod or anything. Do pods have receivers already built into them? etc.

Start with what needs to be "beamed" before going off the deep end into pontification land without any borders.

Pods reside in 0g..... There are NO forces on them at all. Could literally have nothing more than a polished plate on the hull that a polished plate on the pod aligns up to. Vanderwals forces are sufficient from that point onwards for attachment. Could use micro electro magnets, an actuated hook, or bubblegum and it would work.

The only "beamed" power necessary, is however much power is required to keep the capacitors from potentially self discharging so they can start the fusion core when required. The communications power required is infinitesimal in comparison. Other than that, there is no power drain.

Since these are handwavium super capacitors to begin with, what is required is a complete unknown. Are pod capacitors the same as those on missiles? Those on LAC's/ships? Could be nothing more than maintaining temperature. Could bleed out to surrounding structure over time. Nothing is rubbing together (atmosphere)so capacitors cannot self charge themselves via electro statics as there is no atmosphere in space... Who knows.