Something Between Vicar Hauward and Capt Phandys?

Reference:

So I've been rereading A Mighty Fortress...

XVI. Madame Ahnzhelyk's Townhouse and The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands

About 3/4 through the section: Hauwerd, talking to Samyl: “I still have a few friends in the Guard, you know. One of them—I’d rather not say who, even to you—warned me we’re running out of time, Samyl."

And then, at the very end of the section:

"The guardsman released the hilt almost automatically, and (Hauwerd) Wylsynn bent forward, folding around the agony of his death wound. But then the fallen vicar managed to straighten. Somehow he found the strength to raise his head once more. Blood bubbled from his lips, yet his eyes found Phandys’, and there was something in them. Something like … gratitude."

I've seen ruminations on this in other threads, but let me open the discussion:
- Was Phandys Hauwerd's "friend in the Guard?" - This is his fourth tour in the Temple, and it seems to me that he would have had lots of time to interact with Vicar Hauwerd over the years...
- Is it possible that Phandys (at Hauwerd's direction) intentionally "ratted him out" because Hauwerd KNEW what was coming and KNEW what interrogation by the Inquisition would make them reveal?

And now, much later, we see this same (now Major) Phandys assigned as the leader of Duchairn's guard...

Kind of makes me wonder what's going on...

Am I reading much more into this than there really is?

It's entirely possible that Phandys is one of Hauwerd's "friends in the Guard". Since he was Courier service, he probably wasn't the source for the warning - he wouldn't have really been in the right position at the time.


As far as the "something like gratitude" line goes ... it's entirely possible, even likely, that it was a set up - especially considering that Hauwerd had a sword stashed under the table.
On the other hand, playing Devil's Advocate, it's also possible that having the sword was a contingency plan, and Hauwerd would have been perfectly happy to have gotten away with the message insertion. The "something like gratitude" can easily be explained by the fact that Hauwerd was trying to get one of the guardsmen to kill him, and he'd just succeeded, because a clean death in combat is a whole lot better than what would've happened had he be taken alive.


All that summarizes down to: We don't know for sure what was going on "behind the scenes", so to speak, but it's certainly suspicious. Actually, Phandys being part of Hauwerd's plan is a fairly common/popular theory on the forum here. And Phandys is definitely someone to watch going forwards.

WeberFan wrote:Reference:

So I've been rereading A Mighty Fortress...

XVI. Madame Ahnzhelyk's Townhouse and The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands

About 3/4 through the section: Hauwerd, talking to Samyl: “I still have a few friends in the Guard, you know. One of them—I’d rather not say who, even to you—warned me we’re running out of time, Samyl."

And then, at the very end of the section:

"The guardsman released the hilt almost automatically, and (Hauwerd) Wylsynn bent forward, folding around the agony of his death wound. But then the fallen vicar managed to straighten. Somehow he found the strength to raise his head once more. Blood bubbled from his lips, yet his eyes found Phandys’, and there was something in them. Something like … gratitude."

I've seen ruminations on this in other threads, but let me open the discussion:
- Was Phandys Hauwerd's "friend in the Guard?" - This is his fourth tour in the Temple, and it seems to me that he would have had lots of time to interact with Vicar Hauwerd over the years...
- Is it possible that Phandys (at Hauwerd's direction) intentionally "ratted him out" because Hauwerd KNEW what was coming and KNEW what interrogation by the Inquisition would make them reveal?

And now, much later, we see this same (now Major) Phandys assigned as the leader of Duchairn's guard...

Kind of makes me wonder what's going on...

Am I reading much more into this than there really is?

Another thing from the snakepit, that is the Temple, came when Hauwerd 'encountered' Ducharirn in the corridors shortly before the Purge got started in AMF. As Duchairn recalls towards the end of that book; "He knew exactly why Hauwerd had done what he’d done, and he remembered the way Hauwerd had looked into his own eyes on the day he passed him that note."(p. 672).

What is lovely about RFC's writing and his multivolume series is how he leaves these lovely little 'dangles' for books on end. To my knowledge, the contents of this note have yet to be revealed after 4 more books. So, just like the mystery of Major Phandys as to whether he is the guard or guardian of Duchairn, our author leaves these nice little head-scratchers for us to mull - while IMPATIENTLY waiting for the next book or snippet, whichever (please God) comes first!

We've seen a number of insights about the Temple Guard ever since the Phandys episode... I get the sense that there's almost a "behind-the-scenes Praetorian Guard" in place...

Maybe they're just a miniscule subset of the overall Guard, but maybe not.

But if they are, and if Nynian has contacts with them...

Hmmm...

Opens up all sorts of possibilities doesn't it?

WeberFan wrote:We've seen a number of insights about the Temple Guard ever since the Phandys episode... I get the sense that there's almost a "behind-the-scenes Praetorian Guard" in place...

Maybe they're just a miniscule subset of the overall Guard, but maybe not.

But if they are, and if Nynian has contacts with them...

Hmmm...

Opens up all sorts of possibilities doesn't it?

Considering how long the Sisters has been around it's entirely possible they have planted "dragons teeth" in the Temple Guard over several hundred years, both as a source of information but also as a you say - a Praetorian Guard.

Interesting indeed..

Joat42 wrote:

WeberFan wrote:We've seen a number of insights about the Temple Guard ever since the Phandys episode... I get the sense that there's almost a "behind-the-scenes Praetorian Guard" in place...

Maybe they're just a miniscule subset of the overall Guard, but maybe not.

But if they are, and if Nynian has contacts with them...

Hmmm...

Opens up all sorts of possibilities doesn't it?

Considering how long the Sisters has been around it's entirely possible they have planted "dragons teeth" in the Temple Guard over several hundred years, both as a source of information but also as a you say - a Praetorian Guard.

Interesting indeed..

Too true, Joat.

I had to go back real quick and do some reviewing in HFQ to confirm my memory, but one of the original (if not the original) Mother Abbess of the Order of St Khody had a brother and father who were Vicars, and she apparently had "connections" in the Temple...

Ever time I think about this, I'm reminded of Asimov's Second Foundation... Plots within plots.

Curiouser and curiouser.

It DOES make me wonder if the Mad Wizard has some sort of popular insurrection in mind for the Temple Guard, Duchairn, and Helm Cleaver.

GAAAAA!!! Too many moving pieces...

WeberFan wrote:We've seen a number of insights about the Temple Guard ever since the Phandys episode... I get the sense that there's almost a "behind-the-scenes Praetorian Guard" in place...

Maybe they're just a miniscule subset of the overall Guard, but maybe not.

But if they are, and if Nynian has contacts with them...

Hmmm...

Opens up all sorts of possibilities doesn't it?

We do know from HFQ that at least one member of Helm Cleaver is a retired guardsman who maintains relstionships with his former colleagues. How far that penetrstion goes oor how useful, we don't know.

Don

-

And we KNOW that the Temple Guard has access to the special door unlocking keys that can unlock door in the Temple itself... At least some of them do.

All of a sudden, the Temple doesn't seem as secure as it once was.

Hmmm... I have a feeling I'm repeating myself, so I'll keep it short. My own suspicions, based on the assorted straws in the wind:

1. Phandys was indeed one of Hauwerd's friends. He was signaled to act by that insertion in the boat reservations, but:

2. Hauwerd's source for the timing was actually the officer Phandys took his info to.

3. There's probably no direct connection between the 'Wylsynn Faction' of the Guard and Helm Cleaver; they may have ties to the SSK, but probably not. OTOH, there probably is a channel via Nynian, but the guardsmen have no idea who's at the other end.

4. Duchairn is aware of, and working with, the Wylsynn faction [and probably some not pro-Clyntahn vicars as well], but knows nothing of the SSK.

At this point, I don't think speculating on what Hauwerd knew about the SSK is worth the effort.

WeberFan wrote:Reference:

So I've been rereading A Mighty Fortress...

XVI. Madame Ahnzhelyk's Townhouse and The Temple, City of Zion, The Temple Lands

About 3/4 through the section: Hauwerd, talking to Samyl: “I still have a few friends in the Guard, you know. One of them—I’d rather not say who, even to you—warned me we’re running out of time, Samyl."

And then, at the very end of the section:

"The guardsman released the hilt almost automatically, and (Hauwerd) Wylsynn bent forward, folding around the agony of his death wound. But then the fallen vicar managed to straighten. Somehow he found the strength to raise his head once more. Blood bubbled from his lips, yet his eyes found Phandys’, and there was something in them. Something like … gratitude."

I've seen ruminations on this in other threads, but let me open the discussion:
- Was Phandys Hauwerd's "friend in the Guard?" - This is his fourth tour in the Temple, and it seems to me that he would have had lots of time to interact with Vicar Hauwerd over the years...
- Is it possible that Phandys (at Hauwerd's direction) intentionally "ratted him out" because Hauwerd KNEW what was coming and KNEW what interrogation by the Inquisition would make them reveal?

And now, much later, we see this same (now Major) Phandys assigned as the leader of Duchairn's guard...

Kind of makes me wonder what's going on...

Am I reading much more into this than there really is?

Louis R wrote:Hmmm... I have a feeling I'm repeating myself, so I'll keep it short. My own suspicions, based on the assorted straws in the wind:

1. Phandys was indeed one of Hauwerd's friends. He was signaled to act by that insertion in the boat reservations, but:

2. Hauwerd's source for the timing was actually the officer Phandys took his info to.

<snip>

I don't see any evidence that Phandys and Hauwerd were friends, although it's certainly possible they knew each other. Certainly Phandys would have known who Hauwerd was, but the reverse might not have been true. That said there isn't any evidence that they weren't friends either.

I don't think that Hauwerd's source was the officer that Phandys notified about the falsified boat reservations. The reasoning for that is that when they went to arrest Hauwerd, he yelled out something like "Oh f*** you, [whoever]" when they told him he was under arrest. I got the impression that the officer was one of Rayno's true believers and not the type of person that would have been sympathetic to the Circle.

My guess* is that Phandys was NOT aware of the Circle or any other reform minded group at the time we're introduced to him. He was just an officer with a highly developed sense of integrity and duty. His actions that day led to his being trusted by Rayno and assigned as Duchairn's bodyguard, but they also caused him to start quietly questioning what was really going on in the Temple and not liking what he found. Since then he's gotten in touch with some group not loyal to the Group of Four and will be a factor when the time is right.


*My record for guessing is mixed, so we'll have to see how it turns out.