Question about Medusa SD(P)s

The Medusa class retained traditional broadside missile tubes in addition to the pod capability. But I've never actually seen it specified what *type* of missiles the broadside tubes use. Do they fire old style single drive missiles? Or do the tubes also fire MDMs?

Good question. Given that the Minotaur/Hydra LAC carriers had internal MDM tubes I'd guess that the Medusa/Harrington SD(P)s had them as well, but I can't think of any textev off the top of my head either. (And they would have to have special tubes, IIRC MDMs are too big for tubes designed even for standard capital missiles.)

Given that some of the last run of conventional SDs used tube launched MDMs (the Grayson "Benjamin The Great" class IIRC was specifically mentioned as such) the Medusa class using tube MDMs seems extremely likely as doing so would simplify logistics and mean that all of its missile weapons have the same effective range.

Grashtel wrote:Given that some of the last run of conventional SDs used tube launched MDMs (the Grayson "Benjamin The Great" class IIRC was specifically mentioned as such) the Medusa class using tube MDMs seems extremely likely as doing so would simplify logistics and mean that all of its missile weapons have the same effective range.

That makes a lot of sense, if the Benjie was capable of MDM fire despite being laid down before the era of podnoughts, then Medusa's and the Grayson Harrington's would logically also be capable of such.

I'd always assumed they were designed with tubes for (capacitor powered) MDMs; but hadn't thought through the implications till now. Since they weren't laid down until after the first gen MDMs were speced (Mk41's IIRC) it would seem extremely silly to design them to fire MDMs from their pods but only the short ranged SDMs from their broadsides. (For one thing it would preclude customizing the ECM missiles sent with a salvo by launching additional ones from your broadside).

I don't know if the later ones were build with Mk23 capable tubes, or if production had switched to the Invictus before the Mk23 fusion powered MDMs were available.


It seems likely that there was at least a period of time when Medusa/Harringtons were capable of firing Mk23s from their (flatpack) pods but only the older Mk41s from internal tubes. And actually its possible that it wasn't cost effective to rebuild the broadside tubes, launchers, and armoring scheme to convert the early flights to internal Mk23 - so all remaining early builds are still carrying Mk41s in their internal magazines...

Somtaaw wrote:

Grashtel wrote:Given that some of the last run of conventional SDs used tube launched MDMs (the Grayson "Benjamin The Great" class IIRC was specifically mentioned as such) the Medusa class using tube MDMs seems extremely likely as doing so would simplify logistics and mean that all of its missile weapons have the same effective range.

That makes a lot of sense, if the Benjie was capable of MDM fire despite being laid down before the era of podnoughts, then Medusa's and the Grayson Harrington's would logically also be capable of such.

Actually the Benjies specifically DID NOT have have MDMs. I believe it was White Haven musing that the Graysons considered it to expensive to update them and they were going to have a limited life expectancy due to that (newer Harrington IIs had a submodel with a similar flagship setup, which would be replacing the 3 ships, had not the 2nd war intervened)

The last couple Gryphons did have MDMs, though and some more were moded at great time and expense between wars.

The better question is which MDMs can the MDM tube ships fire. The original MDM, the Mk 41 capacitor based missile, was about 2x the size of the mk 23 fusion missile. The Mk 41 however was powered up inside the magazine, as all previous missiles were, while the mk 23 requires a special armored feed tube with a station to spin up the reactor prior to launch. While the RMN/GSN podnaughts were designed with the need to spin up fusion reactors from the outset, it was never mentioned if the tube based ships were designed for both as well.

Grashtel wrote:Given that some of the last run of conventional SDs used tube launched MDMs (the Grayson "Benjamin The Great" class IIRC was specifically mentioned as such) the Medusa class using tube MDMs seems extremely likely as doing so would simplify logistics and mean that all of its missile weapons have the same effective range.

Somtaaw wrote:
That makes a lot of sense, if the Benjie was capable of MDM fire despite being laid down before the era of podnoughts, then Medusa's and the Grayson Harrington's would logically also be capable of such.

Theemile wrote:Actually the Benjies specifically DID NOT have have MDMs. I believe it was White Haven musing that the Graysons considered it to expensive to update them and they were going to have a limited life expectancy due to that (newer Harrington IIs had a submodel with a similar flagship setup, which would be replacing the 3 ships, had not the 2nd war intervened)

The last couple Gryphons did have MDMs, though and some more were moded at great time and expense between wars.

The better question is which MDMs can the MDM tube ships fire. The original MDM, the Mk 41 capacitor based missile, was about 2x the size of the mk 23 fusion missile. The Mk 41 however was powered up inside the magazine, as all previous missiles were, while the mk 23 requires a special armored feed tube with a station to spin up the reactor prior to launch. While the RMN/GSN podnaughts were designed with the need to spin up fusion reactors from the outset, it was never mentioned if the tube based ships were designed for both as well.

Are you sure about that? I thought White Haven was musing that while it'd been one of the most powerful warships in existence when first launched, it was now wildly outclassed by SD(P)s.
Which is completely true, whether or not Benjamin the Great had MDMs. MDM broadside tubes do not compare well with MDM pod patterns.

The MDM-tube SDs were probably all capacitor MDM tubes. Refitting for fusion MDMs would've taken a lot of time and money. I think that in an ideal world, they might've been upgraded to fusion MDMs before being replaced by new SD(P)s, but I doubt the High Ridge and Janacek Admiralty would've bothered, and then the Alexander government would've been too busy fighting the war to pull MDM-capable conventional SDs for refit for fusion MDMs. And Grayson would've been too focused on building new ships.


Fusion MDMs would've come along fairly late in the inter-war period, I think.

Kytheros wrote:

Grashtel wrote:Given that some of the last run of conventional SDs used tube launched MDMs (the Grayson "Benjamin The Great" class IIRC was specifically mentioned as such) the Medusa class using tube MDMs seems extremely likely as doing so would simplify logistics and mean that all of its missile weapons have the same effective range.

Somtaaw wrote:
That makes a lot of sense, if the Benjie was capable of MDM fire despite being laid down before the era of podnoughts, then Medusa's and the Grayson Harrington's would logically also be capable of such.

Theemile wrote:Actually the Benjies specifically DID NOT have have MDMs. I believe it was White Haven musing that the Graysons considered it to expensive to update them and they were going to have a limited life expectancy due to that (newer Harrington IIs had a submodel with a similar flagship setup, which would be replacing the 3 ships, had not the 2nd war intervened)

The last couple Gryphons did have MDMs, though and some more were moded at great time and expense between wars.

The better question is which MDMs can the MDM tube ships fire. The original MDM, the Mk 41 capacitor based missile, was about 2x the size of the mk 23 fusion missile. The Mk 41 however was powered up inside the magazine, as all previous missiles were, while the mk 23 requires a special armored feed tube with a station to spin up the reactor prior to launch. While the RMN/GSN podnaughts were designed with the need to spin up fusion reactors from the outset, it was never mentioned if the tube based ships were designed for both as well.

Are you sure about that? I thought White Haven was musing that while it'd been one of the most powerful warships in existence when first launched, it was now wildly outclassed by SD(P)s.
Which is completely true, whether or not Benjamin the Great had MDMs. MDM broadside tubes do not compare well with MDM pod patterns.

The MDM-tube SDs were probably all capacitor MDM tubes. Refitting for fusion MDMs would've taken a lot of time and money. I think that in an ideal world, they might've been upgraded to fusion MDMs before being replaced by new SD(P)s, but I doubt the High Ridge and Janacek Admiralty would've bothered, and then the Alexander government would've been too busy fighting the war to pull MDM-capable conventional SDs for refit for fusion MDMs. And Grayson would've been too focused on building new ships.


Fusion MDMs would've come along fairly late in the inter-war period, I think.

The HMs minotar fired Mk-41 missiles from it's chase missile tubes. Capacitor MDM's are 18% bigger which would work out to 5.6% longer and 5.6% bigger in diameter, which is why they needed special tubes. It would be like trying to shoot a 44 magnum round out of a 41 magnum pistol. Not mutchvisibly different, but more than enough to make it impossible to the bigger MDM missiles out of the smaller SDM tubes.

Kytheros wrote:

Grashtel wrote:Given that some of the last run of conventional SDs used tube launched MDMs (the Grayson "Benjamin The Great" class IIRC was specifically mentioned as such) the Medusa class using tube MDMs seems extremely likely as doing so would simplify logistics and mean that all of its missile weapons have the same effective range.

Somtaaw wrote:
That makes a lot of sense, if the Benjie was capable of MDM fire despite being laid down before the era of podnoughts, then Medusa's and the Grayson Harrington's would logically also be capable of such.

Theemile wrote:Actually the Benjies specifically DID NOT have have MDMs. I believe it was White Haven musing that the Graysons considered it to expensive to update them and they were going to have a limited life expectancy due to that (newer Harrington IIs had a submodel with a similar flagship setup, which would be replacing the 3 ships, had not the 2nd war intervened)

The last couple Gryphons did have MDMs, though and some more were moded at great time and expense between wars.

The better question is which MDMs can the MDM tube ships fire. The original MDM, the Mk 41 capacitor based missile, was about 2x the size of the mk 23 fusion missile. The Mk 41 however was powered up inside the magazine, as all previous missiles were, while the mk 23 requires a special armored feed tube with a station to spin up the reactor prior to launch. While the RMN/GSN podnaughts were designed with the need to spin up fusion reactors from the outset, it was never mentioned if the tube based ships were designed for both as well.

Are you sure about that? I thought White Haven was musing that while it'd been one of the most powerful warships in existence when first launched, it was now wildly outclassed by SD(P)s.
Which is completely true, whether or not Benjamin the Great had MDMs. MDM broadside tubes do not compare well with MDM pod patterns.

The MDM-tube SDs were probably all capacitor MDM tubes. Refitting for fusion MDMs would've taken a lot of time and money. I think that in an ideal world, they might've been upgraded to fusion MDMs before being replaced by new SD(P)s, but I doubt the High Ridge and Janacek Admiralty would've bothered, and then the Alexander government would've been too busy fighting the war to pull MDM-capable conventional SDs for refit for fusion MDMs. And Grayson would've been too focused on building new ships.


Fusion MDMs would've come along fairly late in the inter-war period, I think.

I also though I'd remembered the Benjie having SDM tubes; but the evidence is ambiguous - though I think leans towards that.

In Echoes of Honor, when we first see her, White Haven think "Barely a T-year old, she was quite possibly the most powerful warship in existence. She certainly had been when she'd been completed". And looking to House of Steel which says "with the secret SD (P) program already starting up, the ships were modified after laydown into dedicated command ships." So this modification was after MDMs were at least on the drawing board; so potentially the modifications could have including launchers for Mk41 MDMs.

Then War of Honor has an ambiguous quote related to possibly scrapping the class, but "MacDonnell hoped Shipbuilding would adopt one of the alternate proposals, instead, and refit the Benjie's shipboard launchers to handle the latest generation of multi-drive missiles". At that point the Mk23s should have been out (since HoS also says that starting in 1920 PD, roughly the time of War of Honor, Hydra-class CLACs began being laid down with Mk23s rather than Mk41s) - and because it doesn't state what you're upgrading from it could be argued either way (upgrade SDM to current MDMs, or upgrade old MDMs to current MDMs)

However the final thing which I think hints most strongly that Benjie carried SDMs is that 16 chapters before White Haven gets musing on her power we're first introduced to HMS Minotaur and told that shes also been "slated to play test bed for the first fruits of that project, as well" (which we later find out refers to the first operational Ghost Rider MDMs (Mk41s; not that than name used until IIRC HoS). So if the first MDMs really aren't deployed until a year after Benjie gets into service then that seems to say she wouldn't have been carrying them. (OTOH it's not definitive; we know Grayson was moving faster on SD(P)s, so this might be the Mantie test bed while Grayson was also quicker off the mark getting MDMs out).

But finally, you'd think if Bengei really outranged the missile of the rest of the fleet that White Haven would specifically muse on that; especially as he goes on to remember how Honor reamed him out about reflexively dismissing the new tech. It seems too good an opportunity to point out that Bengei was a recipient of that tech if she actually carried them.


Oh, and on your other point, House of Steel's entry on the Gryphon-class explicitely says some were refitted, during the Janaseck period, with internal launchers for Mk23s.

I think a few other (non-pod) SDs did get launchers for Mk41s. The last few Steadholder Denevski units, the ones delayed to get the first Harringtons out ASAP, seem like reasonable candidates. As, possibly, could be the last few Gryphons laid down. But the closest I found to evidence is a passing mention in Echoes of Honor, and the passage is duplicated in the HoS novella, that the Mantie launch at Barnett which kicked off Buttercup was "launched from pods and shipboard tubes [...]". But that could have just been the ones from his CLACs, which we know mounted MDM tubes.

Jonathan_S wrote:I think a few other SDs did get launchers for Mk41s. The last few Steadholder Denevski units, the ones delayed to get the first Harringtons out ASAP, seem like reasonable candiates. As, possibly, could be the last few Gryphons laid down. The closest I found to evidence is a passing mention in Echoes of Honor, and the passage is duplicated in the HoS novella, that the Mantie launch at Barnett which kicked off Buttercup was "launched from pods and shipboard tubes [...]". But that could have just been the ones from his CLACs, which we know mounted MDM tubes.

Harringtons have 32 launchers per broadside and Medusas have 26. Both classes have bow launchers as well.

I concur that BtG only ever had SDM tubes. It may have been built the same year as Minotaur, but given the timescales involved, construction probably started later on the Minnie.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that Admiral who said the best scale for an experiment was "ten millimetres to the centimetre" had something to do with the Minotaur featuring MDM launchers instead of SDMs. It could have been a last minute alteration which got overlooked because of all the REMF drama going on around the LACs.