Git your pencils out and design me a ship!

darrell wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Except you're NOT going to mount four Mk16 launchers in a ship the size you're proposing without TARDIS-tech.

how do you KNOW that Mk 16's won't work in an appropriately sized revolver launching tubes.

Mk16s might be workable in a revolver style launcher; although we've not seen a Revolver that fired fusion-powered missiles. Fusion-powered missiles require more peripheral equipment than capacitor missiles and more shielding and cofferdams than capacitor types.

The main problem is the size of your proposed ship.

Mk16s are big missiles -- too big for broadside mounts in a Roland. The support peripherals take up a lot of room -- too much room for "normal" launchers in a Roland's hammerheads.

You're talking about using Mk16s in a ship less than 1/4 the size of a Roland. You're going to need TARDIS-tech (EG The inside is larger than the outside. The classic Dr Who technology.)

You're going to have to use a smaller missile than the Mk16 and probably forego fusion-powered missiles.

OR

You're going to have to build a bigger ship.

Even if you go to a racked-pod setup or similar concept, you're going to need a bigger ship to fit anything except life support and an Mk16 filled flat-pack pod. If you're going to have CMs with a reasonable magazine capacity and PDLCs with a reasonable firing rate (faster firing means more emitters, which means bigger units.) you're going to need volume.

MaxQQ can probably come up with a minimum volume requirement for twenty Mk16s, but pods are already "nearly as large as a LAC" -- said about Wayfarer's pods and 282 series LACs, but probably still a fair comparison for later models. For Mk16s and Flat-pack pod that's 14 missiles rather than the 20 you propose.

Your proposed ship isn't that unreasonable with missiles that would actually fit -- nor that much different than what I proposed with LDDMs. It just won't work with Mk16s.

Weird Harold wrote:

darrell wrote:how do you KNOW that Mk 16's won't work in an appropriately sized revolver launching tubes.

Mk16s might be workable in a revolver style launcher; although we've not seen a Revolver that fired fusion-powered missiles. Fusion-powered missiles require more peripheral equipment than capacitor missiles and more shielding and cofferdams than capacitor types.

The main problem is the size of your proposed ship.

Mk16s are big missiles -- too big for broadside mounts in a Roland. The support peripherals take up a lot of room -- too much room for "normal" launchers in a Roland's hammerheads.

You're talking about using Mk16s in a ship less than 1/4 the size of a Roland. You're going to need TARDIS-tech (EG The inside is larger than the outside. The classic Dr Who technology.)

You're going to have to use a smaller missile than the Mk16 and probably forego fusion-powered missiles.

OR

You're going to have to build a bigger ship.

Even if you go to a racked-pod setup or similar concept, you're going to need a bigger ship to fit anything except life support and an Mk16 filled flat-pack pod. If you're going to have CMs with a reasonable magazine capacity and PDLCs with a reasonable firing rate (faster firing means more emitters, which means bigger units.) you're going to need volume.

MaxQQ can probably come up with a minimum volume requirement for twenty Mk16s, but pods are already "nearly as large as a LAC" -- said about Wayfarer's pods and 282 series LACs, but probably still a fair comparison for later models. For Mk16s and Flat-pack pod that's 14 missiles rather than the 20 you propose.

Your proposed ship isn't that unreasonable with missiles that would actually fit -- nor that much different than what I proposed with LDDMs. It just won't work with Mk16s.

You are wrong about needing tardis tech. The roland at 188K tons would be five times bigger, but contain 12 times more missiles. Furthermore, a LAC dosen't have the space guzzling hyper generator, so a higher percentage of it's mass can be used for weapons.

1/5 the size and no hyper generator versus 1/12 the quantity of missiles. No tardis tech needed. (20 Mk-16 vs 240 Mk-16's)

Building time: for comperable building times, honorverse vs today, I just saw a tv special on the "harmony of the sea" the largest cruise ship ever built.

passengers 6,780 maximum Crew: 2,300
Length: 362.12 metres
Beam: 66 m
App. 50M tall
Tonnage: 226,963 GT

Laid down: 9 May 2014
In service: 15 May 2016

It has about the volume of the roland and took 2 years to build.

Somtaaw wrote:

munroburton wrote:If your customs boat has reached the size of a Katana, it's gone way beyond a pinnace. The original Shrikes came with a stern hangar containing a single cutter and could serve as customs ships in a pinch.

I imagine a purposely designed LAC-sized customs ship would carry at least two cutters. Downsize the graser to a cruiser or destroyer sized beam, retain either a Shrike or Ferret style missile loadout. It doesn't matter which, since a customs boat isn't going to be firing that many missiles - one warning shot and then a disabling shot per engagement, usually. If it needs more than that, then it's in deep trouble and should be running away.

You'd have to be damn near LAC sized, because of life support. Pinnaces don't have enough to last even 3 days, we know this because during Field of Dishonor, McKeon and Cardones couldn't get from Manticore Orbit to Gryphon to hotdrop their Marines on Summervale. And that was with only one platoon per pinnace.


So you're going to need to at least double a pinnace in size just to fit life support, and your platoon of Marines which is 2 squads, or 3? Plus naval ratings for all the inspection parties (otherwise you're not really a customs boat)

And if you're actually going to fire warning missiles, you'll need more than just a few missiles otherwise you have no endurance on station. This is also assuming you're using these patrol boats in and around the hyperlimit, not just immediately around a wormhole or space station. If you're just doing customs around space stations and wormholes, pinnaces are all you need.

A Katana in size for a long-endurance customs boat is probably a bit too much, but better a slightly overly large sublight customs "shuttle" than too small.

How far from their bases will custom boats go? How many hostile engagements will they be required to carry out before returning to drop off captured ships, restock on prize crew and marines, etc.? At some point, the investment in a larger customs ship is such that you're better off upsizing it to a frigate or a destroyer.

Yeah, I think pinnaces are still going to handle the job, operating from stations such as the Astro Controls. If they need more firepower, find a bigger warship. Like at Nuncio when they used pinnaces and LACs to intercept that hijacked freighter.

munroburton wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:

You'd have to be damn near LAC sized, because of life support. Pinnaces don't have enough to last even 3 days, we know this because during Field of Dishonor, McKeon and Cardones couldn't get from Manticore Orbit to Gryphon to hotdrop their Marines on Summervale. And that was with only one platoon per pinnace.


So you're going to need to at least double a pinnace in size just to fit life support, and your platoon of Marines which is 2 squads, or 3? Plus naval ratings for all the inspection parties (otherwise you're not really a customs boat)

And if you're actually going to fire warning missiles, you'll need more than just a few missiles otherwise you have no endurance on station. This is also assuming you're using these patrol boats in and around the hyperlimit, not just immediately around a wormhole or space station. If you're just doing customs around space stations and wormholes, pinnaces are all you need.

A Katana in size for a long-endurance customs boat is probably a bit too much, but better a slightly overly large sublight customs "shuttle" than too small.

How far from their bases will custom boats go? How many hostile engagements will they be required to carry out before returning to drop off captured ships, restock on prize crew and marines, etc.? At some point, the investment in a larger customs ship is such that you're better off upsizing it to a frigate or a destroyer.

Yeah, I think pinnaces are still going to handle the job, operating from stations such as the Astro Controls. If they need more firepower, find a bigger warship. Like at Nuncio when they used pinnaces and LACs to intercept that hijacked freighter.

That's a good point about Nuncio, but that was also because all the real warships were busy chasing the, I think it was a Mars class and another Havenite escort? They used the pinnaces and LAC's because they didn't have a choice for simultaneous strikes.


The role Skimper initially envisioned for his "customs boat" seemed to be something that could also double as an anti-pirate hunter, which means much of it's duty would be spent around, and slightly beyond the hyper limit. Just a round trip to get from a habitable planet to the hyper limit will be anywhere from 12 to 20 hours. That's already one-third the endurance of a Cimeterre, and one-seventh that of a Shrike-B or Ferret (they conducted week long ballistic insertions during Buttercup is where I get that from).

But Shrike-B's didnt carry much in crew only about 6 to max of 10 I think for command birds? If you're carrying even a single squad of Marines which is 12-15 isnt it? Plus you'd need crew to operate the customs boat itself, plus extra naval ratings to serve in inspection parties the Marines are backing up.

I'm actually thinking the customs boat would be something similar to the Call of Duty pre-series, how they chopped up one of the Triumph class BC's (180 Ktons) into 2 sloops. That'd make the sublight only one weigh in at 90 ktons, and what I was picturing was about 70 ktons. The Phobos had 130 crew aboard, we don't know exactly how many may have been Marines, but with the modern Manticoran crew reduction, that size could easily provide for all long endurance hyperlimit customs and patrols, leaving short-endurance pinnaces where they belong.

It wouldn't be as insanely armed as Skimper wanted it, but a few missile launchers, and some cruiser weight beams would give it enough punch for anti-piracy, a few "pinnace" lasers for precision low-damage shots (3-5cm lasers iirc), and it'd be a fairly solid sublight patrol boat.

about 70K tons, 2 lasers, this is for customs works so anything heavier then CL grade really is excessive. 4 missile tubes for LERMs. 8 PD and 4 CM just in case. room for a couple of squads of marines. couple of pinnaces. Life support for full crew of at least a fortnight, just to be on the safe side.

Dauntless wrote:about 70K tons, 2 lasers, this is for customs works so anything heavier then CL grade really is excessive. 4 missile tubes for LERMs. 8 PD and 4 CM just in case. room for a couple of squads of marines. couple of pinnaces. Life support for full crew of at least a fortnight, just to be on the safe side.

Sounds very similar to the Nat Turner-class frigates built for Torch.

Somtaaw wrote:The role Skimper initially envisioned for his "customs boat" seemed to be something that could also double as an anti-pirate hunter, which means much of it's duty would be spent around, and slightly beyond the hyper limit. Just a round trip to get from a habitable planet to the hyper limit will be anywhere from 12 to 20 hours. That's already one-third the endurance of a Cimeterre, and one-seventh that of a Shrike-B or Ferret (they conducted week long ballistic insertions during Buttercup is where I get that from).

I can see wanting units capable of chasing off (or killing) pirates, and letting you enforce your economic claims to anything in the Twelve Hour Limit since that infodump says you only get the 12 Light Minute Limit (12 light minutes beyond the star's hyper limit) automatically; to legally claim the larger zone you must be capable of patrolling it.

But I don't really understand why you'd need to conflate that missile with customs inspection. You don't seem to need to pull a customs inspection to determine whether a ship is a potential pirate, you perform customs inspections to ensure proper tariffs and duties are paid, and that crews papers and inoculations are up to date prior to letting them off the ship. Peaceful ships wouldn't bother transiting through your 12 hours, much less 12 minute, limits if they weren't stopping somewhere within your system. So you could track them and establish comms at long range but wait until closer to the facility they're visiting before deploying a customs inspection.

At wormhole junctions, and around very busy stations, you might need a few armed small craft to pointedly enforce traffic regulations; but again that's a fairly short ranged, low endurance, mission.

I guess you could give every patrol ship a cutter or pinnace to deploy with a customs boarding party, but that seems like a waste of resources to me... Let your patrol ships patrol, and your customs people perform checks only hours before the incoming ship docks.


Or is there some concern that I'm not thinking of that calls for the soonest possible physical inspection once a ship crosses into your territory? (Whether the inspection line is the 12 hour, 12 minute, or hyper, limit)

Jonathan_S wrote:Or is there some concern that I'm not thinking of that calls for the soonest possible physical inspection once a ship crosses into your territory? (Whether the inspection line is the 12 hour, 12 minute, or hyper, limit)

I doubt that it would ever be a routine requirement, but there are bound to be occasions where a physical inspection of a ship at or near the limits of your patrols might be necessary.

It isn't something that would come up often enough to give every customs cutter the range to check out stragglers, or give every patrol ship a dedicated customs inspector. It would probably be a job for a cross-trained Naval or Marine Officer and a pick-up boarding party.

Vince wrote:

Dauntless wrote:about 70K tons, 2 lasers, this is for customs works so anything heavier then CL grade really is excessive. 4 missile tubes for LERMs. 8 PD and 4 CM just in case. room for a couple of squads of marines. couple of pinnaces. Life support for full crew of at least a fortnight, just to be on the safe side.

Sounds very similar to the Nat Turner-class frigates built for Torch.

hmm, it does, doesn't it?

well that would just make production easier if they is a template you could use.

leave out the hyperdrive for more life support and fuel and the Nat turner would work very well in this role.