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No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde

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No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde
Post by Westbrook 49   » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:34 pm

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It's an easy scenario to imagine. Here, a couple of lines
Jack glanced as casually as possible at Lajos Irvine. "Do you happen to have any more imagery of the two of them Lajos? Separately?"
The other man nodded. "Sure. I also put a bug in the diner, so I could monitor them further."


So, knowing this, Jack goes to the diner in disguise, or he brings a jammer-better yet, both. Lajos can't check his bug, or doesn't recognize Jack, so he doesn't warn Bardasano, meaning Jack and Herlander pull their original plan of the air car explosion, and escape with Victor and Anton aboard the Hali Sowle without ever destroying Green Pines or bringing Steph and Nancy Turner with them. A quick trip through the Visigoth Wormhole, and hey presto! They're free and clear.

-Exposure of the Detweiler's.
Jack knows that the Detweiler's are, contrary to what the vast majority of the galaxy believe, are alive and well. Jack will, at the very least, be able to expose Albrecht, Benjamin, Collin and Daniel, given how their respective fields interact with his own. He might also be able to expose Everett, Franklin and Gervais. So, in one swift swoop, the Detweiler family and their roles within the Alignment’s hierarchy are exposed. And that also gets Manty/Haven/GA intelligence looking for them and starting to model their responses.

Conversely, this will make it a lot harder for the Solarian League to swallow. Taking the canon response to the Alignment’s existence, and adding, “Oh, and the leaders of this cabal of hidden supermen with plans to conquer the galaxy and impose their vision of genetic supremacy on everyone is in fact led by the descendants of Leonard Detweiler, who everyone thought had died out centuries ago, and that’s not actually the case, cheers!”? That’s going to put a huge twist on credibility, and make even the most skeptical or suspicious Solly break out in disbelief.


-Further exposure of Mesan Alignment hierarchy.
Outside of the Detweiler’s, Jack can give names and descriptions and roles of a lot of the military/intelligence/R&D people within the Onion. Not only Isabel Bardasano, but Anastasia Chernevsky (whom his brother Zach worked under), Renzo Kyprianou perhaps, and a few others. A lot of the MA will be dragged into the scopes of intelligence agencies.


-No Green Pines Incident.
Without Scorched Earth, the Gamma Center survives, and it’s likely that Pritchard doesn’t bomb Pine Valley Park, instead carrying out his original distraction bombing by the stadium. So while the Mesans will be able to make some hay out of that, probably not as much as they could in canon.


-Bardasano Lives.
With Lajos unable to tell Isabel Jack’s gone off the deep end, she’s not in Gamma when it goes, and is therefore still a threat. While Jack’s exposure of her is going to limit her profile, she’s still an extremely dangerous opponent, and will likely be tasked by Albrecht with the termination of Jack McBryde as her top priority, no matter how it’s done.


-CyberBomb Works Better.
Jack’s cyberbomb will have the time to trash a lot more Alignment records without worrying about a nuclear detonation. This especially means that the Ballroom/Torch will be able to operate on Mesa with a lot more freedom, and it means that it’s possible that Cauldron of Ghosts with Anton/Victor both returning to Mesa might occur in the same manner.
This isn’t canon, but one thing I imagine that Jack set his attack up to strike at was the Gamma Center’s records. I bet that a lot of the records on various projects and such would have disappeared, so that the research efforts of the Alignment would have been hampered.


-Gamma Center Download?
Now, this is just speculation, but I think it’s probable. Jack has access to all of the Gamma Center’s files as Security Chief. So my guess is that if he had survived, he would have downloaded as much of that information that he could have gotten his hands on to take with him as an incentive. At the very least, I can see him downloading everything on the nanotech assassination capability, the streak drive (to help backup and validate Herlander’s testimony), the spider drive, and any other military R&D, as well as a number of other goodies to bring to the table. That would provide the Manticoran/Havenite/GA with a huge jump on how to counter MAlign operations and develop their own versions of such.


-Counterintelligence and Security.
Jack is a priceless intelligence asset. The intelligence agencies are going to look at him like gold, not only for the revelation of the Alignment, but also for a unclose, in-depth look at Mesa’s and the Alignment’s security measures. Those are going to change as soon as they figure out that Jack defected, but it will still be useful, because if you know what the defenses are, you can penetrate and defeat them that much easier. Additionally, they can ask Jack about prior Mesan operations, and get an idea of what differed Manpower’s action from Mesa’s, and what the Alignment had a hand in.
He’s also going to be protected by the best manner possible. I’m talking a treecat for him, and guards with their own treecats, and guards with treecats to guard the guards with treecats.


-Oyster Bay. Given that Anton and Victor aren’t tooling around the stars for months, it might be possible to avert Oyster Bay, or potentially set up a much earlier GA against Mesa (First Manticore is in the works already, and I don’t think it can be avoided). And Oyster Bay might not be avoidable, but at the very least Manticore knows where it’s coming from.


-Houdini.
According to Albrecht, Jack wasn’t briefed on Houdini prior to Oyster Bay, and given that Zach thought that his brother would be Houdini’d as well, it seems likely that Jack wouldn’t be affected the same way as Lajos Irvine was and die like that (unless the Mesans set it up so that the entire security apparatus was so infected, which fits in with their paranoia, but that derails my entire assumption, so I’m not going to go there). Without Green Pines, it will be a lot harder to activate and run Houdini with nukes, but I don’t doubt that the Alignment would try something like that to help “disappear” the upper echelon of the Alignment.


-Speculation as to the Factor.
Jack has no idea of the Factor’s existence, but he’s got to have heard things, speculation, and have maybe an idea of the possibility that they might be out there, so that might turn the attention of the agencies to looking?


-Torch Wormhole.
This is a negative side, but Jack “knows” that the Torch Wormhole hasn’t been mapped by Manpower/Mesa, and will tell the GA so. Meaning that Torch could be even more unprepared for an attack to come through there.

That’s sort of the basis of what I’ve worked out. Anyone else have anything to add?
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Re: No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:33 am

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Westbrook 49 wrote:It's an easy scenario to imagine. Here, a couple of lines
Jack glanced as casually as possible at Lajos Irvine. "Do you happen to have any more imagery of the two of them Lajos? Separately?"
The other man nodded. "Sure. I also put a bug in the diner, so I could monitor them further."


(SNIP of possible consequences)

-Torch Wormhole.
This is a negative side, but Jack “knows” that the Torch Wormhole hasn’t been mapped by Manpower/Mesa, and will tell the GA so. Meaning that Torch could be even more unprepared for an attack to come through there.


I was just looking at chapter 5 of _Torch of Freedom_ and I think it is clear that Jack knows about the original wormhole survey (his brother probably knows more). Thus I believe that he knows about the Twins. He might not know the actual location of the other end of the Torch wormhole and even about the other nexus and its location.
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Re: No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:01 pm

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I think you mostly hit all the nails on the head with your original post, but if I'm McBryde and I've got all my ducks in a row, I've also brought -- lots and lots of data chips.

Given that we currently have SSD drives that hold close to a terabyte of data, let's give him "two". With that in mind, think of how much that actually represents in terms of "hand chunks of this" as appropriate off to Givens, Foraker, Hemphill, Zilwicki, Ruth Winton, and...

Rozak and Barregos. Aim them right at the core of the corruption, back them up with GA forces and let the two of THEM and their forces, backed by the GA do the "whack the SL/Mandarins/OFS" part of the puzzle. I don't think Solarian part of the HonorVerse would fair terribly bad under their takeover, right?
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:08 pm

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Westbrook 49 wrote:It's an easy scenario to imagine. Here, a couple of lines
Jack glanced as casually as possible at Lajos Irvine. "Do you happen to have any more imagery of the two of them Lajos? Separately?"
The other man nodded. "Sure. I also put a bug in the diner, so I could monitor them further."


(SNIP of possible consequences)

-Torch Wormhole.
This is a negative side, but Jack “knows” that the Torch Wormhole hasn’t been mapped by Manpower/Mesa, and will tell the GA so. Meaning that Torch could be even more unprepared for an attack to come through there.


I was just looking at chapter 5 of _Torch of Freedom_ and I think it is clear that Jack knows about the original wormhole survey (his brother probably knows more). Thus I believe that he knows about the Twins. He might not know the actual location of the other end of the Torch wormhole and even about the other nexus and its location.
That's a rather brilliant connection I hadn't drawn out. Picture Berry's response to "you killed my friends, and we know where the other end is now". Even the MAN in that system would have to consider it a bad day when Torch comes a-calling with oh, say a quadruple squadron of borrowed Sag'Cs, a Nike, an ammo ship, and a CLAC just for fun.

Because I don't think Elizabeth would be interested in outsourcing that bit of whack-a-mole to any other GA partners. Call it an extension of Lacoon to take over yet another Wormhole, yes? and profitable for Torch afterwards.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde
Post by drothgery   » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:42 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Given that we currently have SSD drives that hold close to a terabyte of data, let's give him "two".
We have SSDs that hold up to 15 TB, actually. More practically, we have (as of this week) consumer-grade SSDs that hold up to 4 TB (Samsung just released 4 TB version of the 850 Evo).
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Re: No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde
Post by Westbrook 49   » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:22 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
Westbrook 49 wrote:It's an easy scenario to imagine. Here, a couple of lines
Jack glanced as casually as possible at Lajos Irvine. "Do you happen to have any more imagery of the two of them Lajos? Separately?"
The other man nodded. "Sure. I also put a bug in the diner, so I could monitor them further."


(SNIP of possible consequences)

-Torch Wormhole.
This is a negative side, but Jack “knows” that the Torch Wormhole hasn’t been mapped by Manpower/Mesa, and will tell the GA so. Meaning that Torch could be even more unprepared for an attack to come through there.


I was just looking at chapter 5 of _Torch of Freedom_ and I think it is clear that Jack knows about the original wormhole survey (his brother probably knows more). Thus I believe that he knows about the Twins. He might not know the actual location of the other end of the Torch wormhole and even about the other nexus and its location.

I went and looked, and you're right. I think what I was getting at was that Jack was unaware of where the terminus went and the effect of the "kick" in gravity waves, as well as if Torch/Manticore hadn't been aware of it's existence as revealed by Manpower, rather than it hadn't been surveyed at all. Thanks for pointing that out!

SharkHunter wrote:I think you mostly hit all the nails on the head with your original post, but if I'm McBryde and I've got all my ducks in a row, I've also brought -- lots and lots of data chips.

Given that we currently have SSD drives that hold close to a terabyte of data, let's give him "two". With that in mind, think of how much that actually represents in terms of "hand chunks of this" as appropriate off to Givens, Foraker, Hemphill, Zilwicki, Ruth Winton, and...

Rozak and Barregos. Aim them right at the core of the corruption, back them up with GA forces and let the two of THEM and their forces, backed by the GA do the "whack the SL/Mandarins/OFS" part of the puzzle. I don't think Solarian part of the HonorVerse would fair terribly bad under their takeover, right?


Thanks!
And as many data chips as Jack can carry! Stuffed into his pockets, his jacket, backpacks and briefcases, in his shoes and hat if he has to!

I pointed that out in my GC Download? section, but yes, Jack would absolutely want to bring concrete evidence and proof out of Mesa (aside from Herlander himself, who would end up being a major asset scientifically). Handing over a whopping amount of military R&D research and notes on a bunch of vast and varied projects is going to be a way to get in good with the Manties or GA, and allow them not only to counter MAlign tech, but start creating their own.
Shannon Foraker would probably sing opera and dance naked in Bolthole's hallways for a crack at the spider drive, and Sonja Hemphill would look at Herlander Simões and the streak drive and not need a Christmas present for the next decade or so.

As for Maya...not sure there. The GA isn't going to exactly yell "No! Stop!" if/when Barregos and Roszak activate Sepoy, but I don't think they're likely to send them in to strike directly at the League. Use them to smack the hell out of OFS? Certainly. Use them as a prybar to leverage systems away from the League and provide an example of what cooperation with the GA means? Absolutely. Mutual defense pacts and intelligence sharing, yes, of course.
the idea of just arming them and letting them loose is a bit much.

SharkHunter wrote:That's a rather brilliant connection I hadn't drawn out. Picture Berry's response to "you killed my friends, and we know where the other end is now". Even the MAN in that system would have to consider it a bad day when Torch comes a-calling with oh, say a quadruple squadron of borrowed Sag'Cs, a Nike, an ammo ship, and a CLAC just for fun.

Because I don't think Elizabeth would be interested in outsourcing that bit of whack-a-mole to any other GA partners. Call it an extension of Lacoon to take over yet another Wormhole, yes? and profitable for Torch afterwards.


It is a big connection, and a very well done one.
And that force of ES-C's, Nike's,, a CLAC and an ammo ship would certainly make mincemeat of most anything!
But I think Elizabeth would want to go as big as possible, not knowing what was on the other side, and might just ship in a division or two of Invictuses as well.
Even if you've got a pair of battlecruisers with their grasers run out, they're shouldn't be able to kill a ship of the wall that fast, and that's not running on the fact that they might all be shipped in at once (even though that might be something of a tactical blunder, but if the Admiralty is determined or pissed enough, I can see it happening). So some SD(P)'s, a CLAC, a squad of CA's and a BC squad or division, and a ammo ship....yeah, that could kill essentially anything Mannerheim might be able to throw at it.
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Re: No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:55 am

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drothgery wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:Given that we currently have SSD drives that hold close to a terabyte of data, let's give him "two".
We have SSDs that hold up to 15 TB, actually. More practically, we have (as of this week) consumer-grade SSDs that hold up to 4 TB (Samsung just released 4 TB version of the 850 Evo).

For that matter you can already by 1/2 TB SD cards, and can fit way more than 8 (or 30) of them in the volume of a normal SSD drive. So on a TB per cubic inch basis they seem to have the lead, and are possibly closer so something you'd call a data chip.

Still I don't think there's any question that if he'd wanted to get out more data he'd have had no problem transporting it.
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Re: No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:24 am

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Westbrook 49 wrote:It's an easy scenario to imagine. Here, a couple of lines
Jack glanced as casually as possible at Lajos Irvine. "Do you happen to have any more imagery of the two of them Lajos? Separately?"
The other man nodded. "Sure. I also put a bug in the diner, so I could monitor them further."


SNIP?


Congrats on pointing out such a key moment and its potential consequences...

This could be the start of one of those long running threads on 'if only X had done Y' :-)
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Re: No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:23 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
drothgery wrote: We have SSDs that hold up to 15 TB, actually. More practically, we have (as of this week) consumer-grade SSDs that hold up to 4 TB (Samsung just released 4 TB version of the 850 Evo).

For that matter you can already by 1/2 TB SD cards, and can fit way more than 8 (or 30) of them in the volume of a normal SSD drive. So on a TB per cubic inch basis they seem to have the lead, and are possibly closer so something you'd call a data chip.

Still I don't think there's any question that if he'd wanted to get out more data he'd have had no problem transporting it.


Going further, MICRO SD cards hit 200 gigs a couple months ago, and ~8 can fit in the volume of a full SD card. That's roughly 15 terabytes per cubic inch.
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Re: No Scorched Earth-Effects of a Living McBryde
Post by SharkHunter   » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:01 pm

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--snipping--
Westbrook 49 wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:That's a rather brilliant connection I hadn't drawn out. Picture Berry's response to "you killed my friends, and we know where the other end is now". Even the MAN in that system would have to consider it a bad day when Torch comes a-calling with oh, say a quadruple squadron of borrowed Sag'Cs, a Nike, an ammo ship, and a CLAC just for fun.

Because I don't think Elizabeth would be interested in outsourcing that bit of whack-a-mole to any other GA partners. Call it an extension of Lacoon to take over yet another Wormhole, yes? and profitable for Torch afterwards.


It is a big connection, and a very well done one.
And that force of ES-C's, Nike's,, a CLAC and an ammo ship would certainly make mincemeat of most anything!
But I think Elizabeth would want to go as big as possible, not knowing what was on the other side, and might just ship in a division or two of Invictuses as well. Even if you've got a pair of battlecruisers with their grasers run out, they're shouldn't be able to kill a ship of the wall that fast, and that's not running on the fact that they might all be shipped in at once (even though that might be something of a tactical blunder, but if the Admiralty is determined or pissed enough, I can see it happening). So some SD(P)'s, a CLAC, a squad of CA's and a BC squad or division, and a ammo ship....yeah, that could kill essentially anything Mannerheim might be able to throw at it.
Actually, the GA wouldn't attack through a defended wormhole. Less loss of life and far less expensive in terms of ships, etc. to turn loose their collected spies, astrography whiz kids, NavInt, and scout ships to find the Twins. Once found, the GA plus new Torch builds (like Rozak's ships) are then going to attack from the hyper limit side, to destroy the MAN ships in that system, securing the wormhole first, so that they can put the defensive ships (BC's and junction fort-building freighters/ammo ships, etc.) through from the Haven Sector side.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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