Git your pencils out and design me a ship!

So, breaking my own chain here, could a great big freighter size hull be constructed with military grade whatevers to be a factory ship, capable of building LACS, LAC platforms, and perhaps up to DDM pods in whatever system it was in at the moment and while cruising in between?

Given that Dominica Santos was able to basically rejigger things all the way back in OBS aboard an 88K ton light cruiser,
I'm thinking that an 8-10 million size hull OUGHT to have enough fabrication capability to do everything but the core asteroid mining, which would take more specialized craft, but extraction seems to be part of virtually every system's needs and ship repertoire anyway. Maybe something like "the MTN-SSX (Meyers Thomas Navy ShipStation X has arrived, and before departure will be turning loose X platforms, Y LACS, and the pods and control systems for your core system coverage. In return we need A B C tons of raw materials and payment for ..... and off they go to the next system to start building that system's core LAC defense structures.

Thoughts?

darrell wrote:Since Manticore can't build LAC/DD sized DDM's you can't either.

Why not. I did specify they would be short ranged under power. The problem with LAC sized capacitor missiles is powered range. With a missile that has the same range as a LERM (DD sized extended range missile) but with two drives to do it, you've got a lot more options in your attack profile and the option of a ballistic segment to extend range to the limits of your control links.

I did also specify that my LAC would have to be larger to accommodate a LDDM (LAC/Light Dual Drive Missile).

Manticore could build such a missile if they wanted to, but they've been concentrating on extending powered ranges and not the other benefits of dual drive missiles.

darrell wrote:I like the Idea of the roland, ...

There is a difference between "Roland-sized" and "Roland" Size would be the only real similarity to the Roland Class destroyers of the RMN. Making them the same size as the much more lethal Rolands would provide a small degree of doubt in an adversary's threat assessment.

Oh my. A LAC related DDM, now wouldn't that just be a nice bit of nastiness. Obviously it wouldn't have the implied range or hitting power of the Mark 16-G's but... You might end up with a LAC missile with ERM range.

Only problem I see is that the DDM's and MDM shipkillers have the micro-fusion plants in the missiles, and I think that the LAC missiles are too tiny for that, I'm thinking they have to be lit off and sent downstream using the LAC's reactor to charge up the missile capacitors before launch.

Still, if it could be done, imagine some poor Solly BC or similar captain/commodore coming in, thinking "no problem, "no worries, all they've got is LACs", and running into a LAC launched "swarm of bees" with nasty ole stingers that can actually reach them. Wouldn't that be a fine day in FF to discover that little gem in a formerly owned system's pocket.

Oh... and I'd still have the LAC bases able to launch regular DDM shipkiller pods. Play time on target with those the swarm of LAC launched shipkillers, and you could really mess up a commodore's day.

Only problem? Keeping the LACs alive if said FF commodore happens to have Cataphracts that outrange the LACs anyway.

SharkHunter wrote:So, breaking my own chain here, could a great big freighter size hull be constructed with military grade whatevers to be a factory ship, capable of building LACS, LAC platforms, and perhaps up to DDM pods in whatever system it was in at the moment and while cruising in between?

Given that Dominica Santos was able to basically rejigger things all the way back in OBS aboard an 88K ton light cruiser,
I'm thinking that an 8-10 million size hull OUGHT to have enough fabrication capability to do everything but the core asteroid mining, which would take more specialized craft, but extraction seems to be part of virtually every system's needs and ship repertoire anyway. Maybe something like "the MTN-SSX (Meyers Thomas Navy ShipStation X has arrived, and before departure will be turning loose X platforms, Y LACS, and the pods and control systems for your core system coverage. In return we need A B C tons of raw materials and payment for ..... and off they go to the next system to start building that system's core LAC defense structures.

Thoughts?

These already exist. Repair ships.

IIRC, there isn't much either way as to whether they just carry a number of spares or have decent fabbers. Fabrication capability would be somewhere between the Home System(before YS) and a warship's internal workshops.

Not sure if that means they can munch on asteroids and eventually put together a whole warship - though even if they could, it would take substantially longer than even a Solly or older Havenite yard.

I would not be surprised if the RMN's future repair ships were much more well equipped as a direct response to the Yawata Strike. Field production capability would be a high emphasis.

SharkHunter wrote:So, breaking my own chain here, could a great big freighter size hull be constructed with military grade whatevers to be a factory ship, capable of building LACS, LAC platforms, and perhaps up to DDM pods in whatever system it was in at the moment and while cruising in between?

Given that Dominica Santos was able to basically rejigger things all the way back in OBS aboard an 88K ton light cruiser,
I'm thinking that an 8-10 million size hull OUGHT to have enough fabrication capability to do everything but the core asteroid mining, which would take more specialized craft, but extraction seems to be part of virtually every system's needs and ship repertoire anyway. Maybe something like "the MTN-SSX (Meyers Thomas Navy ShipStation X has arrived, and before departure will be turning loose X platforms, Y LACS, and the pods and control systems for your core system coverage. In return we need A B C tons of raw materials and payment for ..... and off they go to the next system to start building that system's core LAC defense structures.

Thoughts?

I doubt that you could get one ship that can do all 3: LAC's, LAC bases, DDM pods. You probably could build one freigher that is a factory for each of the builds, (total of 3) but you will be a heck of a lot better to have a central manufacturing station and cart the LAC's and pods to the system, As for the LAC base, do like manticore does with their new forts: make them modular, build the modules at your home planet and assemble them on sight.

As far as the LAC base, I would have multiple small bases. Each base can hold a squadron of LAC's, the fire controll for 1,000 missiles, and lots of point defense.

Weird Harold wrote:

darrell wrote:Since Manticore can't build LAC/DD sized DDM's you can't either.

Why not. I did specify they would be short ranged under power. The problem with LAC sized capacitor missiles is powered range. With a missile that has the same range as a LERM (DD sized extended range missile) but with two drives to do it, you've got a lot more options in your attack profile and the option of a ballistic segment to extend range to the limits of your control links.

I did also specify that my LAC would have to be larger to accommodate a LDDM (LAC/Light Dual Drive Missile).

Manticore could build such a missile if they wanted to, but they've been concentrating on extending powered ranges and not the other benefits of dual drive missiles.

darrell wrote:I like the Idea of the roland, ...

There is a difference between "Roland-sized" and "Roland" Size would be the only real similarity to the Roland Class destroyers of the RMN. Making them the same size as the much more lethal Rolands would provide a small degree of doubt in an adversary's threat assessment.

RFC has said that a DD/LAC missile is too small to mount a fusion plant.

with a missile of a fixed size, when you go for more drive, you have to sacrifice something else.

I believe that the capacitor driven MDM's have two primary technology improvements, the baffle to isolate the drives and a better capacitor. Quote AoV:
if they wanted to accept bigger launchers and lower missile load-outs, they could probably match the extended range capabilities of Ghost Rider's offensive side. Heck, build the suckers big enough, and they could do it with off-the-shelf components, Stew!"
"Hmph! Have to be really big brutes to pull it off," Ashford grumbled. "Too big to be effective as shipboard weapons, anyway."
"What about launching them from a pod format for system defense?"

If I am right about the "denser" capacitor the drive for a LERM would take up about the same volume as an old style SDM. If I am not correct, than the warhead for a LERM that is the same size would have to be smaller.

A capacitor DDM for a LAC/DD theoretically could be built, but almost all it's mass would be required for the drive. You are probably looking at a warhead the size of a viper, capable of taking out targets with no armor, but unable to penatrate armor so they would be usefull against frigates and LAC's only.

Another option for extended range would be to build a missile on a DD sized frame that had 2 CM drives. (150 seconds at 130KG's) You would be able to put a standard DD warhead and would have a range of 14.3Mkm.

darrell wrote:A capacitor DDM for a LAC/DD theoretically could be built, but almost all it's mass would be required for the drive. You are probably looking at a warhead the size of a viper, capable of taking out targets with no armor, but unable to penatrate armor so they would be usefull against frigates and LAC's only.

Another option for extended range would be to build a missile on a DD sized frame that had 2 CM drives. (150 seconds at 130KG's) You would be able to put a standard DD warhead and would have a range of 14.3Mkm.

If I understood Weird Harold's idea correctly he was only calling for capacitors for 180 or so seconds of powered flight - similar to the LAC/DD SDM. So the extra size would be due to the 2nd drive ring, the baffle emitters, and whatever extra capacitors you needed to run the baffle. The extra range would come entirely through ballistic coasting between the the drive activations.

I guess that could work, but it makes for a complex and expensive missile with s scarily slow coast phase.

Jonathan_S wrote:If I understood Weird Harold's idea correctly he was only calling for capacitors for 180 or so seconds of powered flight - similar to the LAC/DD SDM. So the extra size would be due to the 2nd drive ring, the baffle emitters, and whatever extra capacitors you needed to run the baffle. The extra range would come entirely through ballistic coasting between the the drive activations.

Exactly. A short powered range, capacitor powered Dual Drive Missile for LACs and Destroyers.

Jonathan_S wrote:I guess that could work, but it makes for a complex and expensive missile with s scarily slow coast phase.

The long-range ballistic phase is incidental to the range of tactical possibilities. Such a missile could launch at low speed, and immediately shift to high-speed when the second drive kicks in. or vice versa. It can use any combination of speed settings before adding in the infinitely variable ballistic phase to extend range. The ballistic phase doesn't have to be very long, a matter of a few seconds or so to keep the target from guessing when and how fast the second drive will light off.

darrell wrote:RFC has said that a DD/LAC missile is too small to mount a fusion plant.

with a missile of a fixed size, when you go for more drive, you have to sacrifice something else.

You need to work on your reading comprehension; I've consistently describe the hypothetical LDDM missile as capacitor powered. and Short-ranged under power.

The size would not be "fixed" at the size of existing LSDM or LERM missiles but would be lightly bigger -- similar to the way a Viper is slightly bigger than the Mk-31 it's derived from.

Weird Harold wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I guess that could work, but it makes for a complex and expensive missile with s scarily slow coast phase.

The long-range ballistic phase is incidental to the range of tactical possibilities. Such a missile could launch at low speed, and immediately shift to high-speed when the second drive kicks in. or vice versa. It can use any combination of speed settings before adding in the infinitely variable ballistic phase to extend range. The ballistic phase doesn't have to be very long, a matter of a few seconds or so to keep the target from guessing when and how fast the second drive will light off.

Ok, did some number crunching using your 180s max run time. Since we have no numbers either way I'm assuming that the drive draws triple the power at full acceleration - not just burns out three times sooner. (Though I did one counter-example below where I assume only twice the power - which actually gives better numbers in this energy limited design).

Accel profile High then Low; Low then High
00s @92k +180s @46k =7.3mkm; 180s @46k +00s @92k =7.3mkm
12s @92k +144s @46k =6.3mkm; 144s @46k +12s @92k =5.5mkm
24s @96k +108s @46k =5.2mkm; 108s @46k +24s @92k =4.1mkm
36s @96k +072s @46k =4.0mkm; 072s @46k +36s @92k =2.9mkm
48s @92k +036s @46k =2.9mkm; 036s @46k +48s @92k =2.1mkm
60s @92k +000s @46k =1.6mkm; 000s @46k +60s @92k =1.6mkm
(As you can see, the order you apply the high acceleration matters)

Also, assuming you wanted even 20 seconds of 1/2 power maneuverability on the 2nd drive, then to match \the range of a LERM (which I think is around 16.5 million km) you'd need a 120 second ballistic phase after your first drive ran for its 160 second 46000g burn.

Going back to do the counter-example:
If we took that middle profile of high followed by 72s of 1/2 power, but assume the high power drive take only twice the power from the capacitors of the low we could actually run the high power setting for 54 seconds, rather than 36 which would improve the performance to:
54s @96k +072s @46k = 6.0mkm.
But again, we've no evidence that there's extra power left after a high power capacitor missile burns out its drive ring.

Jonathan_S wrote:Ok, did some number crunching using your 180s max run time. Since we have no numbers either way I'm assuming that the drive draws triple the power at full acceleration - not just burns out three times sooner. (Though I did one counter-example below where I assume only twice the power - which actually gives better numbers in this energy limited design).

You're putting much more thought into this than I ever have...