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End Of Safehold or end of the first series?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: End Of Safehold or end of the first series?
Post by Bluestrike2   » Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:00 am

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wkernochan wrote:Finally, I haven't seen any commentary recently of how exactly they are going to take out that threat overhead. I can see a couple of possibilities: (a) find something in the Temple that can turn it off, so Merlin can get access; (b) failing that, eliminate any opposite-side sensors and build and deploy rockets/warships when the threat is on the opposite side of the planet. Either way, a Wylsynn really needs to get into the Temple so Merlin or Nimue can make sure it's harmless (e.g., the Temple doesn't have opposite-side sensors of its own).


Honestly, I know it's fun to fret about the OBS but taking it down isn't that big of a concern. RFC already wrote a while back that he could think of a number of ways to kill it. Take over the command center, nail it with kinetic rounds large enough and moving at velocity sufficient that the energy defenses won't be able to deflect them, build his own weapons platform to take it out directly, etc.

Getting into space is the easy part. They've already done it; the only trouble they had was when they tried to cross the OBS's defensive perimeter. Worst case, they could just launch from one of the poles since the system would be concentrated on monitoring the inhabited regions of the planet (sun-synchronous orbits being especially useful for that). The OBS is designed to prevent the rise of home-grown technology, not lock the planet from space forever. It's a fine design distinction, but one that's important. From Langhorne's perspective, it made sense: a planet that never develops electricity will never reach into space. Squashing the former prevents the latter.

Anyhow, I think the best argument for some sort of detailed conclusion to the Gbaba arc is that the eventual defeat of the Gbaba is such a critical part of Merlin and Nimue's mission and personalities. They sacrificed *everything* to be ensure that humanity would be ready to successfully meet them again. Not writing about that meeting would be like ending King Arthur's story before he accepted Excalibur, wiping out a huge aspect of his development.
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Re: End Of Safehold or end of the first series?
Post by BobG   » Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:09 am

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CathyH wrote:
Will we see the action skip ahead several hundred years, and Safehold go out to confront the Gbaba?

I would like to see one book dealing with the Gbaba, not another n-book series. That said, I would like that book.

And a minor correction: my understanding is that the next 2 HH books will end the current arc for the Honorverse, but will not end the story. They will have to skip forward n years, and (my speculation) DW may work with someone else to continue it.

-- Bob G
SF & Fantasy: The only things better than Chocolate.
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Re: End Of Safehold or end of the first series?
Post by jlrice54   » Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:26 pm

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RFC aging and retiring with the story line unfinished is one of my nightmares.
Jerry Pournelle has already done that with the Jannissary/Tran series since I don't think Marmalukes was ever really finished and that wasn't really supposed to be the end of the series. I'm only a little over a year younger than David and I know I'm starting to look forward to my exit strategy in the next 5-7 years.
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Re: End Of Safehold or end of the first series?
Post by WeberFan   » Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:56 pm

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jlrice54 wrote:RFC aging and retiring with the story line unfinished is one of my nightmares.
Jerry Pournelle has already done that with the Jannissary/Tran series since I don't think Marmalukes was ever really finished and that wasn't really supposed to be the end of the series. I'm only a little over a year younger than David and I know I'm starting to look forward to my exit strategy in the next 5-7 years.

Made a vow to myself at a very early age that I'd never get "old." Looks like that one is one I WON'T be able to honor... Doesn't make it any easier though... Hope David can keep writing for a long, long time! ;)
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Re: End Of Safehold or end of the first series?
Post by Peter2   » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:07 am

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WeberFan wrote:
[snip]

Made a vow to myself at a very early age that I'd never get "old." Looks like that one is one I WON'T be able to honor... Doesn't make it any easier though... Hope David can keep writing for a long, long time! ;)


I'm with you on that one. Advancing in years is mandatory, but IMO growing old is more an attitude of mind, and so is optional – and I'm not going there :D
.
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Re: End Of Safehold or end of the first series?
Post by BobG   » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:54 am

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WeberFan wrote:
jlrice54 wrote:RFC aging and retiring with the story line unfinished is one of my nightmares.
Jerry Pournelle has already done that with the Jannissary/Tran series since I don't think Marmalukes was ever really finished and that wasn't really supposed to be the end of the series. I'm only a little over a year younger than David and I know I'm starting to look forward to my exit strategy in the next 5-7 years.

Made a vow to myself at a very early age that I'd never get "old." Looks like that one is one I WON'T be able to honor... Doesn't make it any easier though... Hope David can keep writing for a long, long time! ;)

Read the forward to "The Sensuous Dirty Old Man" by Dr. A (Issac Asimov) to understand about growing old :^)

-- Bob G
SF & Fantasy: The only things better than Chocolate.
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Re: End Of Safehold or end of the first series?
Post by saber964   » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:17 pm

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Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional. This bit of advice was from my great uncle who at the age of 84 decided to go around the block with a pair of steel roller skates on his feet.
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Re: End Of Safehold or end of the first series?
Post by Charybdis   » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:49 pm

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WeberFan wrote:
jlrice54 wrote:RFC aging and retiring with the story line unfinished is one of my nightmares.
Jerry Pournelle has already done that with the Jannissary/Tran series since I don't think Marmalukes was ever really finished and that wasn't really supposed to be the end of the series. I'm only a little over a year younger than David and I know I'm starting to look forward to my exit strategy in the next 5-7 years.

Made a vow to myself at a very early age that I'd never get "old." Looks like that one is one I WON'T be able to honor... Doesn't make it any easier though... Hope David can keep writing for a long, long time! ;)

I echo your feeling on Jerry Pournelle's Jannissary/Tran series - I don't even want to re-read the preceding books unless I can get an ending!

One distinct advantage that our beloved RFC has over JP is not having had the severe health crisis that Mr Pournelle had AND his current technology for writing. When you are able to use the dictation technology, the inevitable arthritis and other old-age infirmities that have bedeviled authors in the past are MINIMIZED.

Can you imagine what we would have been 'stuck' with if RFC was using the same technology as Charles Dickens? Dickens wrote 12 MAJOR novels and a multitude of shorts, novellas, edited a weekly journal as well as traveling and lecturing in America and Europe. All this using pen and ink in his 58 years of life (1812-1870). Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) helped midwife the typewriter because he could see the improvement potential deriving from it for professional writers.

Fingers, toes, eyes, legs and arms are crossed in hopes that he, RFC, can complete (to our satisfaction) the majority of his story arcs. Is there any prolong in the Weber house? ;)
-----

What say you, my peers?
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Re: End Of Safehold or end of the first series?
Post by DMcCunney   » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:35 am

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Part of the fun is that we really don't know anything about the Gbaba, save that their response to any encounter with the TF was to attack.

As far as the TF had been able to figure out, the Gbaba were an old civilization, who had apparently been starfaring and had an interstellar polity back when men still lived in nomadic bands, wore skins, and sheltered in caves.

When the TF first encountered the Gbaba, the Gbaba had superior technology. The TF appeared to be in roughly the same position vs the Gbaba as the galley fleets of Dohlor and Tarot were contending with Prince Cayleb's galleons.

Frantic R&D efforts addressed the technological imbalance, and by the time Operation Ark was dispatched, TF ships were equal or superior to Gbaba ships, but the Gbaba had sheer numbers. Even if the TF technology had been developed to an extent twice as advanced as what the Gbaba deployed, Earth would still face the problem of "Destroy one of them, and ten more appear to take it's place." The Gbaba did seem to be a static society deploying hardware designed long ago, and not updated because it didn't need to be and handled what they required.

We don't know how large the Gbaba polity is, or what total resources they have to draw upon. I think we can assume a situation like the one in Apocalypse Troll, where the Federation learns the Kangas had wiped 26 other sentient species before running into humanity, and we may well learn that dead species whose world the TF discovered weren't the only other sentient species the Gbaba had destroyed.

But there are a few speculations we can have fun with. One is "Are the Gbaba in fact sentient?"

Some folks here may have read the late Mack Reynold's "Section G" stories. In the first one, Ronnie Bronston is inducted as a new recruit into Section G, an arm of the Intelligence service of the United Planets.

The United Planets has the underlying notion that everyone should be allowed to go to Hell in their own way. A number of colonies were seeded from Earth, and many of them were formed by people who had notions of what Utopia ought to be, including theocracies and Neolithic hunter-gatherer societies.

The avowed purpose of the UP is to prevent others from upsetting those apple carts, so that folks who founded such societies can continue on their desired path. Ronnie is sent out on his first assignment in company of Supervisor Lee Chang Chu, with the mission of finding and stopping "Tommy Paine", a notorious terrorist and troublemaker who has been trying to upset the apple cart on an assortment of colony worlds.

He returns to Terra to announce "Section G is Tommy Paine!" He's told he is quite right, and is shown the reason - the charred corpse of the only non-human sentient being the UP has encountered. The corpse was found in the wreckage of a one-being scout ship. The parts of the ship the UP recovered include technology the UP still doesn't understand after years of research. But whatever destroyed it swatted it as casually as we might swat a fly. Whatever swatted the alien is out there somewhere, and the UP needs to be ready to encounter it. So Section G is Tommy Paine, deliberately upsetting apple carts and pushing less technological colonies toward greater intellectual and technological development.

In a later story, Ronnie encounters the swatters, and you can make a case they aren't, in fact, sentient.

Sentience emerged as a solution to rapid environmental change. Embedded reflex was no longer sufficient, and the reflex action might just be wrong and get you killed. The ability to consciously consider what was occurring and possibly create new responses became a survival characteristic.

What happens when you have achieved sufficient mastery of your environment that things like interstellar travel become matters of reflex? If you don't need sentience to insure survival, do you remain sentient, or does it atrophy?

(I believe Paul McAuley did a series with an alien species which only becomes sentient again when faced with a species threatening problem, and most of the time exists by reflex.

I've also seen the notion posed as a solution to the Fermi Paradox. "If the galaxy contains as many planets as it appears, where are the other intelligent species? Why haven't we seen any traces of them?" An answer might be that many of them simply aren't intelligent as we think of it any more, because they stopped needing to be to survive.)

What if the Gbaba are operating on reflex, and have stopped being sentient? Defeating them may be less a matter of military force, and more a question of finding something that will wake them up and force them to become sentient again. Once forced to actually think about what they're doing, they might decide it's bad and they should stop doing it.
______
Dennis
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Re: End Of Safehold or end of the first series?
Post by dobriennm   » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:21 am

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DMcCunney wrote:..........

What if the Gbaba are operating on reflex, and have stopped being sentient? Defeating them may be less a matter of military force, and more a question of finding something that will wake them up and force them to become sentient again. Once forced to actually think about what they're doing, they might decide it's bad and they should stop doing it.


Considering how us sentient beings in the here and now manage to fight and commit genocide, I wouldn't be so sure that waking them up from acting by reflexes to acting intelligently would be a good idea.

They might get even better at the genocide thing!
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