Safehold Oil and Gas Industry

Randomiser wrote:Weird Harold seems to be ignoring the fact that there were reasons the Wright Brothers used an ICE instead of a steam engine for their plane. It was much simpler to get the power to weight ratio needed that way. If Merlin is going to let people think things out for themselves instead of continually handing out candies, lots of things are going to get done the simple way first. ICE powered vehicles are not just used for cars despite Harold's focus on them, they also form the end of every efficient distribution chain for goods, sometimes both ends.

Moreover Harold seems to be under the misapprehension that having burnt lot of hydro-carbons was a something that held back TF society. Where is the evidence for that in the long term? They seem to have been getting along just fine till the Gbabba turned up, with no evidence of any shortage of plastics, drugs, or anything else you might think of as being made from crude oil. In other words all his wrangling is to solve a non-problem

FWIW my own thought is that if they had more or less as much energy as they could think of requiring they just made any long chain hydrocarbons they needed from simpler starting points, possibly by genetically manipulating microbes to do it for them.

Their first computer will not be a Macintosh or anything like for similar reasons. The investment of time and technique and oodles and oodles of cash required to make an IC fab capable of producing a Macintosh level processor would not be a sensible first step down the line of electronic development. (You might even need a precursor computer to design a chip that complex, I can't remember the exact details.) Valves do a whizz-bang job for basic radio, TV, and Radar and are a much simpler less capital-intensive way to start building up an electronic industry and infrastructure. Similarly, cathode ray tubes are good for early experiments on the electron and make decent screens for electronic test instruments and TV's at a much lower level of tech than that required to make flat, digital screens.

Keith_w wrote:I think that everyone is focusing on the wrong question. it is not can we avoid the mistakes(?) of the past? It should be, can the the medical unit in Nimue's cave install the connections for the high speed learning device, whos' initials I have presently forgotten, in babies. Once that is accomplished the knowledge of the TF can be uploaded as a starting point for the development of new knowledge and devices. in our own world, nobody has to re-invent the wheel, we build on the knowledge and technology of those who went before. Why shouldn't Safehold do the same? But the key will always be, how does the knowledge get transferred, and the only viable answer is direct loading.

Randomiser wrote:

Keith_w wrote:I think that everyone is focusing on the wrong question. it is not can we avoid the mistakes(?) of the past? It should be, can the the medical unit in Nimue's cave install the connections for the high speed learning device, whos' initials I have presently forgotten, in babies. Once that is accomplished the knowledge of the TF can be uploaded as a starting point for the development of new knowledge and devices. in our own world, nobody has to re-invent the wheel, we build on the knowledge and technology of those who went before. Why shouldn't Safehold do the same? But the key will always be, how does the knowledge get transferred, and the only viable answer is direct loading.

Actually, Keith is there any textev that a NEAT interface cannot be installed in adults? OAR or BSRA says it was usually/normally installed in very young children but certainly does not say that it cannot be installed in anyone older.

If it leaves a detectable result, not necessarily a USB socket behind the ear, but a distinctive lump or two in the scalp, say, that would be a good reason for Merlin not upgrading anyone in a way that would be a clear violation of the proscriptions if it were ever discovered.

WeberFan wrote:To answer some of the questions (my version is searchable):

By Schism Rent Asunder
October, Year of God 892
III. Tellesberg Palace, City of Tellesberg, Kingdom of Charis

about 90% through the section

NEAT = Neural Education and Training is a device. You need to have the correct implants so the NEAT can interface with the implants. The implants are surgically implanted shortly after birth. I've searched through OAR, BSRA, and BHD. IIRC, there is additional information later on in another book - perhaps where Merlin first meets with Nahrman in VR?? and they talk about the implants and Merlin's "jury rig"?? Could be somewhere else though. I'll search them as I get to them (doing a comprehensive re-read at this time...)

Shan-wei was able to abscond with 3 NEATS that she used for reeducation, but those being reeducated already HAD the implants (obviously).

Cheers

Keith_w wrote:I believe there is. When Caleb, Sharlyan and Merlin are discussing the reeducation of Saint Zherneau, his wife and extended family, the question is asked why they can't use the NEAT (thanks by the way) to educate themselves and Merlin informs them that it has be installed shortly after birth (probably within minutes). On the other hand, I am getting old and decrepit and misremember stuff and I don't have a searchable version of the books. On the third hand, NEATs have been discussed to death in various other topics but I can't find any that referenced that specific issue on the other hand I only got to page 12 or so in the 51 that were listed

Randomiser wrote:Weberfan and PeterZ, thanks for the assist. I am aware of the Saint Zherneau passage KeithW mentions; I re-read it within the last month but don't have it to hand just now. As I remember it Caleb et al ask Merlin if there is a NEAT in the cave and could they be educated with it as St Zherneau was? Merlin replies that it isn't possible because they don't have the necessary implants. He also says that in the TF children had them inserted when they were really young. But I was surprised to notice that is all he says. This has usually been interpreted as meaning that it is impossible to give implants to older people, but I am pretty sure Merlin does not explicitly say that there.

Nahrman is a different case AFAIR Merlin mistakenly turned up with the wrong kind of recorder, one that would only work with NEAT implants, which, of course, Nahrman didn't have. Since Nahrman was dying anyway Merlin used the prince's medical nannites to build a temporary substitute out of parts of Nahrman's brain, a technique which in itself would inevitably be fatal. This only partially worked. But it says nothing about whether or not a properly prepped medical facility could actually implant the regular interfaces for a NEAT in an adult.

It would not surprise me if PeterZ was right about this and the reasons Merlin spoke 'carefully'. However I don't know if there is a comment from DW on this aspect of NEAT implants somewhere in the forum.

PeterZ wrote:
[snip]

As to how easily the interface might be recognized, I think even that might be adjusted to become less obvious. The issue is that Merlin would prefer NOT to have Safeholdians rely in Terran Fed tech. He wants to firmly establish a culture of innovation on Safehold. The best way to do that is to instill in as many people as possible the mindset that supports the scientific method and then the habits to test their ideas and assumptions.

Afterall the Gbaba still had a sufficient advantage to doom the Terran Federation. Safehold needs to develop technology beyond the TF to defeat the Gbaba. They can't do that with all the NEATs in the world but no innovation. They might be able to with sufficient innovation but no NEATs. The best chance is if they had both. Getting NEATs too early would reduce Safehold's ability to innovate.