Last use for SL SD captured

Somtaaw wrote:Harold, Honor also isn't advocating signing a mutual defense treaty with every two-bit Verge or Shell system that agrees to leave the League.

I never said she was. I'm talking about those systems who DO sign a mutual defense pact.

Somtaaw wrote:They'd have to either "pull a Maya" to warrant a MDP, or be something like Meyers when Henke came sailing in to find that the local King wasn't an OFS bootlicker and actually cares about his people. Mini Maya's, and something like Meyers help "extend peace" to their surroundings far more effectively than just "yes we'll leave the League, give us your stuffz!" level of diplomacy.

Does everyone go blind when I type "Spies and diplomats" -- especially ones who aren't idiots?

Somtaaw wrote:Those are the most likely types of "allies" Honor would agree to give all up local defenses beyond the sort of forces Manticore used to seize wormholes...

The GA does NOT have the ships or manpower to add the full responsibility to defend treaty partners and cover all their other commitments. They must provide defense to their mutual defense partners with the least expenditure of "blood and gold." IOW, more missiles, LACs and training cadre and less operational presence.

Since Manticore and Grayson are currently production bottlenecks initial GA provided installations are going to be surplus from Haven as Haven upgrades to Manticoran/Apollo tech. Still, any missile heavy defense installation will have to cover the necessary volume with as few missiles as possible because of the number of installations and the lack of production in Manticore and Grayson; that means full-on MDM system defense variants -- four drives, and too big for ships.

Haven doesn't have anti-shipping LACs, so LACs provided will have to be Manticoran Shrike-A or equivalent, and probably manufacturing licenses to build sufficient numbers.

The GA must provide defenses that go beyond the simple "mutual defense" pact and demonstrate that they are willing to treat partners as full partners instead of junior partners or cannon fodder. Of course, the spies and diplomats writing the specific language of the treaties have to ensure that only trustworthy systems are offered mutual defense pacts involving front-line hardware from the start..

Weird Harold wrote:
Haven doesn't have anti-shipping LACs, so LACs provided will have to be Manticoran Shrike-A or equivalent, and probably manufacturing licenses to build sufficient numbers.

Umm, what? Haven doesn't have anti-LAC LAC's, but even the original Cimeterre's that were utilized in Thunderbolt are anti-shipping LAC's. Hell, for that matter right in the prologue or first chapter of At All Costs, we see a mere 200 or so Cimeterre's take out 2 freighters in, I want to say Zanzibar but it was probably Alizon. And they launched TWO missiles, one per freighter, ok I'll grant you both those freighters had dropped their wedges but that's irrelevant really, they'd just have launched more missiles if the merchy crews hadn't abandoned ship.

Cimeterre-Alpha's weren't as good as Shrike-A's, but the Beta birds are very nearly as good, and Haven had designed those second generation Cimeterre's in both missile only and they even got a laser-based bird that is essentially a slightly less powerful Shrike.

And with the beta birds, armed with everything Foraker could reverse-engineer from the Erewhon agreement, the Beta birds were coming out of the yards right about the time of Solon, Lovat and BoMa. So those spinal laser armed Cimeterre-Beta's would still put a tremendous hurt on anything upto Haven Sector heavy cruisers and possibly even League battlecruisers. They don't have the upgraded lenses and focusing of Shrike-Beta's who are now approaching SD graser strength, but does it really matter to a cruiser if the weapon is a cruiser laser or an SD graser? Either way it's still just as dead.

Somtaaw wrote:Umm, what? Haven doesn't have anti-LAC LAC's, but even the original Cimeterre's that were utilized in Thunderbolt are anti-shipping LAC's.

I'll have to do a bit of research, which I don't have time for today, but I'm pretty sure that RHN LAC doctrine developed as anti-LAC and Missile Defense because they couldn't give the originals enough power to take on warships.

You may be correct that the later generations of RHN LAC do have some capability against hardened and defended targets -- like warships -- but RHN LAC doctrine is still primarily anti-LAC and missile defense.

Weird Harold wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Umm, what? Haven doesn't have anti-LAC LAC's, but even the original Cimeterre's that were utilized in Thunderbolt are anti-shipping LAC's.

I'll have to do a bit of research, which I don't have time for today, but I'm pretty sure that RHN LAC doctrine developed as anti-LAC and Missile Defense because they couldn't give the originals enough power to take on warships.

You may be correct that the later generations of RHN LAC do have some capability against hardened and defended targets -- like warships -- but RHN LAC doctrine is still primarily anti-LAC and missile defense.

The Republic didn't dedicate their LAC's exclusively to anti-LAC and missile defense until after Grayson sprung the Katana's on them. Prior to that surprise, which didn't happen until around halfway through AAC, they would and could act in anti-shipping roles. They were used a number of times in Alizon and Zanzibar as scouts, to see how Manticore was changing their system-defense doctrine, and destroy any shipping and resource extraction they could get in range of.

Post-Katana encounters, Republican LAC doctrine changed to almost purely missile defense because even with a 4:1 numeric advantage, Katana's would tear them up.

But against any form of non-Manticoran based tech, the Cimeterre's are deadly craft that can still carry the anti-shipping role easily enough. After all, outside of the MAlign, nobody in the League actually believes something as small as a LAC can possibly have the firepower [or defenses] Manticore claims their's do.

Somtaaw wrote:... they would and could act in anti-shipping roles. They were used a number of times in Alizon and Zanzibar as scouts, to see how Manticore was changing their system-defense doctrine, and destroy any shipping and resource extraction they could get in range of. ...

By your standards, pinnaces have anti-shipping capability.

Weird Harold wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:... they would and could act in anti-shipping roles. They were used a number of times in Alizon and Zanzibar as scouts, to see how Manticore was changing their system-defense doctrine, and destroy any shipping and resource extraction they could get in range of. ...

By your standards, pinnaces have anti-shipping capability.

LAC's are sufficient deterrent for most pirates. Even manticore used Highlander-class light attack craft Service Life: 1843–1912 (HoS)Honor's first command was a LAC.

Then there are the series 282 LAC's in HAE:
Now, about the LACs. They're a new model, and the six of them can probably stand up to a heavy cruiser for you if they have to.
"Then you should take them with you," Fuchien said. "If we're going to run for n-space anyway and they're powerful enough to be that much use—"
"They aren't powerful enough to make the difference against a battlecruiser,"

Haven LAC's are designed to take on the even more powerful shrike, so they would be even more powerful than the series 282. Therefore any single haven LAC will be able to destroy any pirate or frigate, along with some DD's. 4-6 would be able to stand up to a heavy cruiser, and 8-16 should be able to stand up to a BC.

The main drawback to the haven LAC is it's 3 day life support. There are two ways around this.

1. Get twice the LAC's they need, and do a 2 days on, 2 days off routine.
2. Add life support, which will make them bigger.

darrell wrote:LAC's are sufficient deterrent for most pirates. Even manticore used Highlander-class light attack craft Service Life: 1843–1912 (HoS)Honor's first command was a LAC.

Well, duh! LACs in a system defense role are for intruders too small to waste a SDMDM on and customs duty.

darrell wrote:Then there are the series 282 LAC's in HAE:

Where is the stockpile of series 282 LACs and production lines for new ones and/or spares?

Maybe sell the plans for 282s to systems that don't want to commit to mutual defense? Nobody is currently making them and Honor's were destroyed in the Selker Rift. Not sure how many Wayfarer class AMCs were built or how many 282s were built to support the the Wayfarers but I doubt there were ever a thousand in service.

darrell wrote:Haven LAC's are designed to take on the even more powerful shrike, so they would be even more powerful than the series 282.

Designed as a LAC superiority LAC doesn't make them "shipkillers" against warships that know they exist. That's the reason that Manticore has shifted LAC doctrine to anti-lac and anti-missile and is phasing out the grazer armed Shrikes.

Weird Harold wrote:

darrell wrote:LAC's are sufficient deterrent for most pirates. Even manticore used Highlander-class light attack craft Service Life: 1843–1912 (HoS)Honor's first command was a LAC.

Well, duh! LACs in a system defense role are for intruders too small to waste a SDMDM on and customs duty.

darrell wrote:Then there are the series 282 LAC's in HAE:

Where is the stockpile of series 282 LACs and production lines for new ones and/or spares?

Maybe sell the plans for 282s to systems that don't want to commit to mutual defense? Nobody is currently making them and Honor's were destroyed in the Selker Rift. Not sure how many Wayfarer class AMCs were built or how many 282s were built to support the the Wayfarers but I doubt there were ever a thousand in service.

darrell wrote:Haven LAC's are designed to take on the even more powerful shrike, so they would be even more powerful than the series 282.

Designed as a LAC superiority LAC doesn't make them "shipkillers" against warships that know they exist. That's the reason that Manticore has shifted LAC doctrine to anti-lac and anti-missile and is phasing out the grazer armed Shrikes.

I was tasked about interleaving my comments because some people access this forum using tablets and phones, which don't reproduce things as well.

There are three possible threats that a system that leaves the SL might face.
1. The SLN ttrying to force it back into the SL.
2. A "warlord" that wants to create his "empire" and suck the system dry.
3. Pirates.

Although we disagree on the type of pods that will be needed against 1 & 2, IMO LAC's would be the best defence against pirates for a newly independent system.

As far as the series 282, 12 trojans with 12 LAC's each, probably only about 150 were made. Although one option is to sell the plans, another option is to have haven build them for sale. I don't think that there is anything in the 282's that is proprietary or that haven can't build.

Haven LAC's are not anti-LAC LAC's like the Katana, WOH had 768 cimitars against 216 manty LAC's.

Quote: "War of Honor"
And because Clapp had been so ruthless in suppressing every single system which wasn't absolutely essential to the Cimeterre's mission as he visualized it, each LAC could cram a truly amazing number of missiles into its sophisticated rotary-magazine launchers.

The tripple ripple is a series of missiles, the first missile at 40kKm, the second at 30kKm, the third at 10kKm, and the 4th being shipkiller laser heads. This makes it likely that the cimitar uses a 4 round revolver.

IMO the most likely configuration for the cimitar is 4 revolver missile tubes on each broadside, and it is clear in WoH that the cimitar has broadside tubes, not chase tubes.

The Cimitar has at least 16 shipkiller missiles in each broadside, compared to the series 282 with 12 missiles and a laser. It is also about half the size of the 282, as a haven CLAC can carry more than twice the LAC's

In short, unlike the katana that has no shipkiller missiles, the Cimitar has more shipkiller missiles than the shrike series 282 or any prior LAC. This makes it a shipkiller LAC.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:Your solution is to give technology to people who don't have the means to use it but will immediately see the dollar signs and sell the technology in question to everyone else....

You apparently haven't read a thing I typed beyond "MDM, Mycroft and LACs"

What I got from that was that you would sell out your people in order to make some money, consequences be damned.
Money is important in war, but giving the other side the tools to defeat you is criminal.

kzt wrote:So you, the planet of peace and disarmament (like 50% of the SL) signs a peace treaty with Manticore and leaves the SL, forcing the SLN to abandon their planet. And there was much rejoicing. A month later a band of pirates rolls into the system, blows your 6 obsolete LACS out of the sky and starts making demands.

Was signing a peace treaty a good idea for your planet?

Will this encourage other SL systems to sign peace treaties with Manticore?

Where do you think will former SLN crew's and ships end up? If the leadership of Maya was able to come up with the plan and convince its military detachment to start working towards independence while the SLN was still a legitimate threat, what makes you think the SLN will survive as a cohesive force after the defeats it has suffered and after the civilian government starts attacking and oppressing the home systems of it's crew's?

Some will set up shop as pirates, while others will set up shop as warlords but many others will declare allegiance to one system or another so not every system will be defenceless and require GA protection.