Last use for SL SD captured

darrell wrote:

kzt wrote:Every core system has enormous industrial capability. They can build them themselves thanks to the magic of the Honorverse, where Beowulf is going to be going from a secret RMN concept study for a system defense network to having produced a fully deployed and working system in under 6 months, using completely different fabrication systems, completely different industrial suppliers and having never produced a single component of that system previously.

Haven has on the order of 100 systems, manticore with talbot and silesia has on the order of 100 systems, the andermanti empire has on the order of 100 systems. That is on the order of 300 systems. (give or take 50)

Quote: "A rising thunder"
When those opportunities are coupled with the fact that—unlike the citizens of the League—both Manticorans and Havenites are experienced in and thus far better inured to the strains and tensions of interstellar warfare, their alliance is probably in a position to recoup everything it’s lost as a result of the Manties’ closure of our trade lanes within a very few T-years. Certainly in a shorter time than we can recover. In fact, our projections over at Economic Analysis indicate that we’ll reach a tipping point at which the combined economies of Manticore and Haven will effectively match the economic power of the League within no more than ten to fifteen T-years.”

To recap, In 10 to 15 years the GA's 300 systems will reach economic parity with the SL's 3,000 systems. RFC has stated time and time again that manticore is the most productive world in existance. there is NO WAY that the average SL world has massive manufacturing.


My guess is that currently the average SL world has the economy equal to the the average havenite or andermanti world, twice the average economy of a silesian or talbot quadrant world.

Under those conditions, the average economy would need to increase 31% a year in order to match the SL in 10 years, 20% a year to match the SL in 15 years.

In order for the GA to match the SL economically if the average SL world had an economy equal to manticore before oyster bay, the economy would have to grow 36%-60% a year.

remember that we have RFC's statement that it would be impossible for the SL to commission it's first SDP in anything less than 6 years.

Is there a difference between economic power and industrial potential?

Opening trade routes is great for the coffers of Manticore but does it do anything to it's industrial potential? And most of the systems that Manticore has are on the low end of the industrial and economic scale no better than protectorates, while Haven has a few that might be industrially advanced and the Andermani are almost a complete unknown.

As the league starts feeling Lacoon 1 and 2 their economies will start taking a hit, the longer it lasts the worse it gets and more widespread it gets as the individual systems start feeling it as well.

It has been discussed in several of the books that the League has the industrial potential to steamroll the GA if given the chance.

Weird Harold wrote:
So you choose "dog-in-the-manger," Which has pretty much been your whole argument here.

Your solution is to give technology to people who don't have the means to use it but will immediately see the dollar signs and sell the technology in question to everyone else. So instead of having 5-10 years of complete dominance to find a way to destroy the League without making all of its member systems enemies, instead of potentially having dominance over the MA and the RF while they try to get parity, your solution is to give them that parity... how thoughtful of you. So when the MA comes at the GA next, they will do it with their own bag of goodies and all of the GA's technology as well.

Sigs wrote:Your solution is to give technology to people who don't have the means to use it but will immediately see the dollar signs and sell the technology in question to everyone else....

You apparently haven't read a thing I typed beyond "MDM, Mycroft and LACs"

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:Your solution is to give technology to people who don't have the means to use it but will immediately see the dollar signs and sell the technology in question to everyone else....

You apparently haven't read a thing I typed beyond "MDM, Mycroft and LACs"

No we just believe you are wrong. You are aparantly looking at things out of context. A more full quote is below:

Storm from the Shadows wrote:We have to split the League into separate sectors, into successor states, none of which have the sheer size and concentrated industrial power and manpower of the present league. Successor states that are our own size, or smaller. And we have to negotiate bilateral peace treaties with each of those successor states as they declare their willingness to opt out of the general conflict to get us to stop beating on their heads. And once we have those peace treaties, we have to not only honor them, but step beyond them. We need to use trade incentives, mutual defense pacts, educational assistance, every single thing we can think of to show them that we are—and to really be, not just pretend to be—the sort of neighbor and ally they'll want around. In other words, once we break the League militarily, once we splinter it into multiple, mutually independent star nations, we have to see to it that none of those star nations have any motive to fuse themselves back together and gang up on us all over again."

Honor is advocating peace treaties, not mutual defense pacts.

Both sigs and I, along with others, are against giving too much technology to others too soon. Both MDM and FTL technology, as well as ghostrider are to central to give up to anyone that is not a full ally, which won't be the case for most of the former SL.

look at it this way. The US has a peace treaty with north korea. Should the US give stelth fighters, stealth bombers and ICBM's to North Korea?

I suspect that part of the conflict is that the two of you are looking at different time frames. For the first dozen systems or so to succeed, there is a real chance that the SLN can come calling in force to try and force them back into the SL. I have no problem in stationing a small defensive force if the system requests it. A squadron of SDP's, a CLAC or two, along with an ammunition ship should be sufficient.

After 50-100 worlds succeed is a different proposition. The GA can't break off enough ships for several hundred former SL world picket duty. Fortunatly, the GA dosen't need to give top of the line hardware to former SL worlds to help them defend themselves.

They do not need FTL technology to be able to defend themselves against a SLN SD squadron. Don't give them mycroft with it's integrated FTL transceivers. Give them haven's moriarty and it's speed of light controls.

They don't need MDM missiles to defend against an SLN SD squadron. A few thousand system defence pods that contain cataphrats with captial missile warheads or capital ERM birds would work just as well.

darrell wrote:

Storm from the Shadows wrote:We have to split the League into separate sectors, into successor states, none of which have the sheer size and concentrated industrial power and manpower of the present league. Successor states that are our own size, or smaller. And we have to negotiate bilateral peace treaties with each of those successor states as they declare their willingness to opt out of the general conflict to get us to stop beating on their heads. And once we have those peace treaties, we have to not only honor them, but step beyond them. We need to use trade incentives, mutual defense pacts, educational assistance, every single thing we can think of to show them that we are—and to really be, not just pretend to be—the sort of neighbor and ally they'll want around. In other words, once we break the League militarily, once we splinter it into multiple, mutually independent star nations, we have to see to it that none of those star nations have any motive to fuse themselves back together and gang up on us all over again."

Honor is advocating peace treaties, not mutual defense pacts.

You highlighted the wrong portion.

I've been talking about the specific portion of the league successors who fall into the category I highlighted in red. You and Sigs have taken that to mean anyone who ever communicated with the League or some other all-encompassing one-size-fits-all group getting a free giveaway of every invention Manticore ever produced.

You and Sigs apparently think Manticore employs idiots as spies and diplomats -- the whole GA for that matter -- because you assume that that would be no risk assessment before offering a treaty of any kind or qualifications placed in the specific treaty offered to any specific successor state or potential successor state.

Finally, read some history: The US does not have a peace treaty with North Korea; North Korea signed a "cease fire in place" with the United Nations and South Korea. North and South Korea are technically still at war and the US has a Military Assistance treaty with South Korea.

darrell wrote:...I have no problem in stationing a small defensive force if the system requests it. A squadron of SDP's, a CLAC or two, along with an ammunition ship should be sufficient.

After 50-100 worlds succeed is a different proposition. The GA can't break off enough ships for several hundred former SL world picket duty.

The GA doesn't have enough ships or people to garrison even the first fifty worlds to secede. Not and protect commerce or support freedom movements in the verge stirred up by Firebrand and take out Frontier Fleet bases and OFS sectors like Madras.

darrell wrote:They do not need FTL technology to be able to defend themselves against a SLN SD squadron.

See my comments about sell FTL communication or watch somebody else rake in the money.

darrell wrote:They don't need MDM missiles to defend against an SLN SD squadron. A few thousand system defence pods that contain cataphracts with capitol missile warheads or capital ERM birds would work just as well.

See my reply to Kzt regard the GA building Cataphracts in addition to GA tech. Somebody else might sell a Cataphract based system defense setup, but it won't be the GA.

Weird Harold wrote:

darrell wrote:...I have no problem in stationing a small defensive force if the system requests it. A squadron of SDP's, a CLAC or two, along with an ammunition ship should be sufficient.

After 50-100 worlds succeed is a different proposition. The GA can't break off enough ships for several hundred former SL world picket duty.

The GA doesn't have enough ships or people to garrison even the first fifty worlds to secede. Not and protect commerce or support freedom movements in the verge stirred up by Firebrand and take out Frontier Fleet bases and OFS sectors like Madras.

darrell wrote:They do not need FTL technology to be able to defend themselves against a SLN SD squadron.

See my comments about sell FTL communication or watch somebody else rake in the money.

darrell wrote:They don't need MDM missiles to defend against an SLN SD squadron. A few thousand system defence pods that contain cataphracts with capitol missile warheads or capital ERM birds would work just as well.

See my reply to Kzt regard the GA building Cataphracts in addition to GA tech. Somebody else might sell a Cataphract based system defense setup, but it won't be the GA.

Honor is advocating a PEACE TREATY! Honor VERY SPECIFICALLY is AGAINST giving most former SL worlds MILITARY TECHNOLOGY.

You quoted me out of context, to bring back the full post: Quote: myself
For the first dozen systems or so to succeed, there is a real chance that the SLN can come calling in force to try and force them back into the SL. I have no problem in stationing a small defensive force if the system requests it. A squadron of SDP's, a CLAC or two, along with an ammunition ship should be sufficient.

FTL communications is something we will need to agree to disagree on. Broadband FTL communications is to important to apollo, so IMO it would be a mistake to sell FTL UNTIL both the SL is disbanded and the MA is destroyed. It took Manticore 15 years to go from Morse code style FTL to broadband FTL communications. It is highly unlikely that the SL or the MA could do it much faster, so they can wait a few years and still make an killing.

I also never said anything about the GA building missiles for the former SL worlds. The former SL worlds can build the cataphracts themselves. (technodyne would be happy to make a profit from them) The GA could at it's option either manufacurue ERM system defence missiles for sale or give the plans to the former SL systems for them to manufacture themselves.

Also Peace treaty COMES FIRST! mutual defense pact is one of many options. Also, there are many flavors of mutual defence treaties. I suspect that honor meant mutual defence in the manner of we will protect your commerce in our system as long as you protect our commcerce in yours, not in the manner of if you go to war I am required to join you.

So you, the planet of peace and disarmament (like 50% of the SL) signs a peace treaty with Manticore and leaves the SL, forcing the SLN to abandon their planet. And there was much rejoicing. A month later a band of pirates rolls into the system, blows your 6 obsolete LACS out of the sky and starts making demands.

Was signing a peace treaty a good idea for your planet?

Will this encourage other SL systems to sign peace treaties with Manticore?

darrell wrote:I also never said anything about the GA building missiles for the former SL worlds. The former SL worlds can build the cataphracts themselves. (technodyne would be happy to make a profit from them) The GA could at it's option either manufacurue ERM system defence missiles for sale or give the plans to the former SL systems for them to manufacture themselves.

If they build their defense system for themselves, or buy it from someone other than the GA, then they quite obviously aren't included in those systems that I've been talking about, are they.

As for pruning your wall of text, I left the entire quote from Shadow of Freedom intact. Are you unable to see red? Should I have highlighted in blue? I've been talking about a subset of the entire range of treaties Honor advocated -- "mutual defense pacts"

Yes, a peace treaty of some sort is usually part and parcel of a mutual defense pact, but I'm not talking about systems that sign something less than a mutual defense pact. A trade pact, for example, doesn't even require a peace treaty clause or any sort of military agreement, just a purely financial arrangement.

The full quote again:
[quote="Storm from the Shadows
Chapter Fortyy-four
(Honor Alexander-Harrington speaking)" We have to split the League into separate sectors, into successor states, none of which have the sheer size and concentrated industrial power and manpower of the present league. Successor states that are our own size, or smaller. And we have to negotiate bilateral peace treaties with each of those successor states as they declare their willingness to opt out of the general conflict to get us to stop beating on their heads. And once we have those peace treaties, we have to not only honor them, but step beyond them. We need to use trade incentives, mutual defense pacts, educational assistance, every single thing we can think of to show them that we are—and to really be, not just pretend to be—the sort of neighbor and ally they'll want around. In other words, once we break the League militarily, once we splinter it into multiple, mutually independent star nations, we have to see to it that none of those star nations have any motive to fuse themselves back together and gang up on us all over again."[/quote]

You're missing the entire point Honor is making. Yes, she's advocating peace treaties, she's hardly be advocating individual declarations of war.

The important point she's making is that they need to do more than sign a piece of parchment, they need to do what Manticore has traditionally done: share virtually everything with allies and bring them up to near-parity if not full parity with the RMN. Including equipment, training, cross-posting of personnel, etc. If there's no tradition of military service, help them establish one.

Other sorts of treaties, trade, education assistance, etc, carry the same sort of obligation to go beyond the words on the paper to real, tangible actions that reinforce the words.

Harold, Honor also isn't advocating signing a mutual defense treaty with every two-bit Verge or Shell system that agrees to leave the League.

They'd have to either "pull a Maya" to warrant a MDP, or be something like Meyers when Henke came sailing in to find that the local King wasn't an OFS bootlicker and actually cares about his people. Mini Maya's, and something like Meyers help "extend peace" to their surroundings far more effectively than just "yes we'll leave the League, give us your stuffz!" level of diplomacy.

Those are the most likely types of "allies" Honor would agree to give all up local defenses beyond the sort of forces Manticore used to seize wormholes... a cruiser squadron, maybe a destroyer flotilla and singleton CLACs with a single ammunition freighter loaded with pods. After all, Spindle showed that heavy cruisers alone can take out entire fleets of superdreadnoughts. You don't need more than a single CLAC's brood and a squadron of light cruisers to hold against anything short of a full-court press using dozens of SD's.