Defensive pods

At All Costs, Chapter 9 wrote:Morton Schneider watched the Manticoran missiles knife towards his LACs like so many space-going sharks. A blizzard of counter-missiles raced to meet them, but the attack missiles' accompanying electronics warfare platforms were far too capable. CM after CM lost its target, wandering hopelessly off course. The first wave intercept killed only twenty of the incoming MDMs. The second wave of counter-missiles did better—over a hundred and fifty of the Manticoran missiles disappeared—but that left over twelve hundred, and he wasn't going to have time for more than another two or three CM launches. Only, if he took those launches, there wouldn't be time for Zizka, and in the face of that massive missile storm . . .
"Implement Zizka now!" he snapped.
"Aye, Sir. Implementing Zizka," Rothschild replied instantly, and smacked the heel of his hand down on the big, red button beside his tactical panel.
Two hundred Cimeterre-class LACs launched their full missile loads. Six thousand far-shorter ranged missiles, launched in three slightly staggered waves, went streaking to meet the incoming Manticoran MDMs, and Broughton watched his display narrowly as they spread apart, each bird positioning itself precisely to play its part in the "Triple Ripple." Designed to knock back the sensors and EW of Manty LACs, it ought to do a real number on missile sensors which had to be pointed directly towards their target at this point.
The lead wave of his missiles was almost into position when the MDMs abruptly changed heading. Schneider's jaw muscles clenched painfully as the attack missiles' vectors changed. Half of them were "climbing" sharply, while the other half "dove" equally sharply, and he swallowed a venomous oath as he realized what they were doing.
So one of their pickets who saw the Ripple did get home, he thought. And the bastards decided to do something about it. Worse, they figured out the possibilities for missile defense and did something about them, too.
The maneuver had to be the result of a preprogrammed attack profile. There was far too little time for whoever had fired them to change profiles that quickly on the fly. But whoever had done the preprogramming had timed it well. The change in attitude interposed the floors and roofs of the MDMs' impeller wedges between them and the Cimeterres' missiles just as the powerful, dirty warheads of the Republican missiles began to detonate. The solid wall of blast fronts and EMP which was supposed to blind and burn out the Manticoran missiles' seekers wasted itself against sensors which couldn't even see it.
All three Zizka waves detonated, and the flood of attack missiles which had parted around the Triple Ripple's roadblock altered heading once more. Their noses swung back towards their targets, and there wasn't time for another counter-missile launch.
Laser heads began to detonate in deadly sequence. X-ray lasers, designed to engage superdreadnoughts, ripped and tore at mere LACs, and space was abruptly ugly with broken and dying craft. Light attack craft shattered, vomiting hull splinters and bodies. Fusion bottles flashed like funeral pyres, and a tsunami of fire washed over Schneider's formation.
The evasion maneuver programmed into the Manticoran missiles as a counter to the Triple Ripple had blunted the defensive maneuver, but it had also broken the attack missiles' locks on their designated targets. They had to reacquire on their own, without guidance from the ships which had launched them, and their onboard targeting systems were far less capable than the fire control of their motherships.
Twelve hundred missiles reached attack range, but over half of them never managed to relocate a target before their overtake velocity carried them clear past the Havenite LACs. Of the five hundred-plus which did see a target, the vast majority concentrated on the most exposed, clearly visible targets. "Only" one hundred and seventy-five of Schneider's LACs were actually attacked. Of that number, seventeen survived.

Vince wrote:It seems to me that the Grand Alliance already has a system that is essentially similar to the idea of drone/defensive pods holding single drive missile Dazzlers (ECM missiles with no warheads) and is available right now, and has the advantage of being able to be used for other purposes rather than just fleet defense.

It's the RHN Cimeterre-class LACs with Zizka.

An example of Zizka in action against RMN MDMs (not using Apollo control missiles) that were targeted on the RHN Cimeterre-class LACs (not hyper-capable units):

At All Costs, Chapter 9 wrote:Morton Schneider watched the Manticoran missiles knife towards his LACs like so many space-going sharks. A blizzard of counter-missiles raced to meet them, but the attack missiles' accompanying electronics warfare platforms were far too capable. CM after CM lost its target, wandering hopelessly off course. The first wave intercept killed only twenty of the incoming MDMs. The second wave of counter-missiles did better—over a hundred and fifty of the Manticoran missiles disappeared—but that left over twelve hundred, and he wasn't going to have time for more than another two or three CM launches. Only, if he took those launches, there wouldn't be time for Zizka, and in the face of that massive missile storm . . .
"Implement Zizka now!" he snapped.
"Aye, Sir. Implementing Zizka," Rothschild replied instantly, and smacked the heel of his hand down on the big, red button beside his tactical panel.
Two hundred Cimeterre-class LACs launched their full missile loads. Six thousand far-shorter ranged missiles, launched in three slightly staggered waves, went streaking to meet the incoming Manticoran MDMs, and Broughton watched his display narrowly as they spread apart, each bird positioning itself precisely to play its part in the "Triple Ripple." Designed to knock back the sensors and EW of Manty LACs, it ought to do a real number on missile sensors which had to be pointed directly towards their target at this point.
The lead wave of his missiles was almost into position when the MDMs abruptly changed heading. Schneider's jaw muscles clenched painfully as the attack missiles' vectors changed. Half of them were "climbing" sharply, while the other half "dove" equally sharply, and he swallowed a venomous oath as he realized what they were doing.
So one of their pickets who saw the Ripple did get home, he thought. And the bastards decided to do something about it. Worse, they figured out the possibilities for missile defense and did something about them, too.
The maneuver had to be the result of a preprogrammed attack profile. There was far too little time for whoever had fired them to change profiles that quickly on the fly. But whoever had done the preprogramming had timed it well. The change in attitude interposed the floors and roofs of the MDMs' impeller wedges between them and the Cimeterres' missiles just as the powerful, dirty warheads of the Republican missiles began to detonate. The solid wall of blast fronts and EMP which was supposed to blind and burn out the Manticoran missiles' seekers wasted itself against sensors which couldn't even see it.
All three Zizka waves detonated, and the flood of attack missiles which had parted around the Triple Ripple's roadblock altered heading once more. Their noses swung back towards their targets, and there wasn't time for another counter-missile launch.
Laser heads began to detonate in deadly sequence. X-ray lasers, designed to engage superdreadnoughts, ripped and tore at mere LACs, and space was abruptly ugly with broken and dying craft. Light attack craft shattered, vomiting hull splinters and bodies. Fusion bottles flashed like funeral pyres, and a tsunami of fire washed over Schneider's formation.
The evasion maneuver programmed into the Manticoran missiles as a counter to the Triple Ripple had blunted the defensive maneuver, but it had also broken the attack missiles' locks on their designated targets. They had to reacquire on their own, without guidance from the ships which had launched them, and their onboard targeting systems were far less capable than the fire control of their motherships.
Twelve hundred missiles reached attack range, but over half of them never managed to relocate a target before their overtake velocity carried them clear past the Havenite LACs. Of the five hundred-plus which did see a target, the vast majority concentrated on the most exposed, clearly visible targets. "Only" one hundred and seventy-five of Schneider's LACs were actually attacked. Of that number, seventeen survived.

Italics are the author's.

Rakhmamort wrote:You need a CLAC to bring LACs.

And LACs aren't exactly supposed to attract missiles and soak up the X-Ray lasers...

Vince wrote:-
Something the size of a LAC is much harder for MDMs to lock onto, compared to hyper-capable units, especially if SDs are around for them to see.

I also suspect you will probably need something approaching the size of a CLAC to carry all the drone/defensive pods you would need to fend off MDM salvos. And if you need something approaching the size of a CLAC, you might as well use a CLAC and the LACs it carries and be able to use the CLAC and LACs for missions other than fleet defense.

Rakhmamort wrote:
Wow! Just wow! All this time you thought the defensive pods are to IMPROVE on the capabilities of the current generation warships.
FYI, I have stated at the very start the underlying reasons why USING the MOST advanced tech against the SLN at the start of the war with SL is not a very good idea.
1) Most advanced toys = most expensive ones.
2) You are giving the enemy data on your equipment.

The GA doesn't need to pull out all the stops. The SLN equipment isn't as good as Haven's as of Buttercup and the RMN already wiped the floor with them with what they had. The SLN would already be totally f@cked up with tech at that level.
With the expenses RMN and GN are using up to rebuild their infrastructure, they don't need to spend for things that will OVERKILL the enemy when they can produce equipment that will do just enough killing.

Somtaaw wrote:

Rakhmamort wrote:
Wow! Just wow! All this time you thought the defensive pods are to IMPROVE on the capabilities of the current generation warships.
FYI, I have stated at the very start the underlying reasons why USING the MOST advanced tech against the SLN at the start of the war with SL is not a very good idea.
1) Most advanced toys = most expensive ones.
2) You are giving the enemy data on your equipment.

The GA doesn't need to pull out all the stops. The SLN equipment isn't as good as Haven's as of Buttercup and the RMN already wiped the floor with them with what they had. The SLN would already be totally f@cked up with tech at that level.
With the expenses RMN and GN are using up to rebuild their infrastructure, they don't need to spend for things that will OVERKILL the enemy when they can produce equipment that will do just enough killing.

To use your own words, wow just wow. Have you just not read the books at all? The ONLY time technology was kept hidden from their enemies was immediately pre-Buttercup. And that was only because Manticore wanted the new podlayers, LAC's and MDM's to be an absolute knockout punch. And even when they finally pulled the trigger, they ONLY EVEN HAD less than 60 podnoughts, a few squadrons worth of CLACs and somewhere between 2000 and 4000 LAC's to start off Buttercup.


Every single other time a Haven Sector Navy came up with new technology, it's used... on the frontlines, with little to no "hiding" that it was there and present. Every. Time.

So to use bad tech merely to hide the good tech you're REALLY relying upon, just doubles the chances for your enemies to scavenge something. Because that's what any ship relying on a "defense pod" would be doing.... deploying defense pods as a "hey look how we're padding our defenses" meanwhile they're also deploying Ghost Rider, LACs in fleet missile defense, fusion powered flatpack pods, Dragon's Teeth and Dazzlers, Loreleis, and maybe even full up Keyhole-II's and Apollo.


Unless you're honestly, and seriously advocating a ship deliberately use absolutely terrible defense ideas, which increases the risk of the ship being shot to hell, simply to avoid waving the "hey look at my super advanced tech that you don't have, nyah nyah you can't haaaave it!"

And we've seen many many ships that have been shot in combat, and don't totally blow up. So unless every ship ever used in future SLN or MAlign battles carries exactly zero of the very best & latest Manticoran technology, all you have to do is win just one battle and board every single intact ship looking for parts. Well, win and admit that your "not invented here" syndrome is stupid, and that someone else is allowed to have better technology than you do, which so far the SLN cant and the MAlign keeps losing everytime it tries to get Manty tech.

But the MAlign keeps trying to win, while the SLN is so obviously incompetent, it would take more Battle of Manticore levels of handwavium induced stupidity to allow the SLN to win against Manticoran tech.

Kytheros wrote:Which brings up the question - what would have happened if Manticore had sat on Apollo longer than they did? Would they have had time to bring it into broader deployment? Would Manticore (and allies) have had the time to equip enough ships with Apollo to go straight for Haven in a knockout strike?

Kytheros wrote:To be fair, Manticore would have preferred to sit on Apollo long enough to be able to rearm most or all of their SD(P)s with it, but decided things were tight enough that the value of having a bit of Apollo with 8th was more important than waiting to have Apollo everywhere.
Which brings up the question - what would have happened if Manticore had sat on Apollo longer than they did? Would they have had time to bring it into broader deployment? Would Manticore (and allies) have had the time to equip enough ships with Apollo to go straight for Haven in a knockout strike?


And, in the lead-up to Buttercup, Manticore was using a few of the new ships and tricks from Ghost Rider, but only in situations where they could hide it.

Rakhmamort wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Given that you have to have fairly specific hull shapes to install an impeller ring I'm still pretty skeptical that you can squeeze on into somethign half the size of a pod while only needing to give up something like 34% of it's volume - much less that you can do so while keeping the shape of 1/2 a pod so 2 can be bolted together into the shape of a whole normal missile pod. Just rounding off the pod into a roughly cylindrical shape to be compatible with an impeller ring would cause you to lose almost as much interior volume as that.

Why are you skeptical? The shape must be sort of long and straight. An elongated box fits that description and you can fit 4 missiles in one. Just add your impeller ring at the back.
If you need to make the shape a bit rounded, by all means, feel free.
If it cant be contoured like the most recent pods, then it cant be done that way, just use the flatpack design as your base. As I said, it's just an engineering problem.

Somtaaw wrote:

Kytheros wrote:To be fair, Manticore would have preferred to sit on Apollo long enough to be able to rearm most or all of their SD(P)s with it, but decided things were tight enough that the value of having a bit of Apollo with 8th was more important than waiting to have Apollo everywhere.
Which brings up the question - what would have happened if Manticore had sat on Apollo longer than they did? Would they have had time to bring it into broader deployment? Would Manticore (and allies) have had the time to equip enough ships with Apollo to go straight for Haven in a knockout strike?


And, in the lead-up to Buttercup, Manticore was using a few of the new ships and tricks from Ghost Rider, but only in situations where they could hide it.

I'll grant those points. What bothers me, is that the Andermani ships were refit into Keyhole-II and Apollo capability and not even a single division of Home Fleet was refit to have it. I realize the intent being putting most of Apollo capable ships into Eighth Fleet to give the illusion of already having it broadly deployed. As you pointed out, even during the Buttercup build up, some of those new-build, new-tech ships were deployment in penny packets which also gave the opportunity for limited combat testing, rather than just endless simulations and wargames against officers who know its rough capabilities.