Last use for SL SD captured

Sigs wrote:5. Encourage every system to build up its own military forces, even if the GA has to provide assistance in the training wherever possible.

None of these other then the first and last one really has potential to scale. However you can't go from a couple of obsolete LACs to having built and trained an effective defense force capable of stopping a BC squadron in time to matter. So the problem is what can you do today that will support at least 250-500 systems that decide to go to war with the SL and also abandon the protection of the SLN.

There are pretty much no pirates in the SL today, but they will change fast and if your allies get ravaged by pirates I think this will be an issue with getting more allies.

This ignores the whole distance issue as parts of the SL are a long way from Haven sector.

It's a complex difficult problem.

Somtaaw wrote:Sorry Sigs, it took them almost 2 months, from shortly BEFORE Lovat happened, just to hit the 620 SD(P) active fleet, plus ~300 old-style SDs which nobody except the SLN regards as primary combatants anymore. They took over 50% of their SD(P)'s to Manticore, leaving 270 SDP's + ~300 SD legacy to guard Haven territory

No mention of exactly how many CLAC's were actually committed or kept in reserve were mentioned at this time, or even afterwards iirc.

At All Costs, end of Chapter 54 wrote:"You say we'd commit almost three hundred and fifty ships of the wall," she said, finally. "What does that leave us if things go wrong?"

"We'll have a total of just over six hundred and twenty SD(P)s in commission at that point," Theisman told her. "There'll be another three hundred or so older superdreadnoughts to support them, although by that point we'll be decommissioning the older ships steadily to provide crews for the new construction."

They will have 620 SD(P)'s in commission at that point... as in at the point of things going wrong.

Bolthole build 300+ SD(P)'s in a little over 3 years all on it's own.

I would venture a guess that as those SD(P)'s were completed more were laid down.


So even on a low end figure we are looking at another 300 SD(P)'s laid down and completed or near completion by 1921/1922 from Bolthole alone.

Even if we assume that Bolthole represents 50% of all SD(P) shipbuilding capability of the entire republic that would still leave another 300 SD(P)'s laid down before the war started and therefore nearing completion. And it's likely that Bolthole represents less than 50% of the ship building capability of Haven.

Let's look at the numbers that were provided in Chapter 7 of At All Costs.

The Manticore Alliance had 232 SD(P)'s in 1920 with estimate of another ~170 SD(P)'s within 11-18 months to bring the total to ~400 SD(P)'s.

When we consider the Manticore Alliance having ~370 SD(P)'s accounting for losses @ time of Beatrice, and accounting for still existent technological advantage by the Manticore Alliance Ships I can safely say that the situation would not be as dire if the Alliance had 370 SD(P)'s and Haven had 570 SD(P)'s after also accounting for losses including the 36 SD(P)'s lost in Solon.

If Haven had only 570-620 SD(P)'s to the Alliance's ~370-400 SD(P)'s the situation was not dire by any means. If on the other hand Haven had 800-900 SD(P)'s in active service and working up while the Alliance only had ~370-400 the situation would be significantly more worrisome from the point of view of the Alliance.

kzt wrote:None of these other then the first and last one really has potential to scale.

Why? IF someone was captured by the GA and subsequently learned that their home system declared independence from the League, why wouldn't they choose to serve their home system rather than the League? I am not saying all will choose to take the offer but many will.


As for hitting the concentration of forces, punching out as many large SLN formations as you can seems like the logical thing to do. As long as you don't hit any truly sensitive political locations you should be good.

The GA does not have an obligation to protect every League Member, they only have to protect those truly vital systems. Some systems will end up with their local fleet detachment post independence weather it's 1 DD or 20 BC's.
The League will fragment, and as they end up using force on system after system and getting their asses handed to them by the GA, individuals and entire ship/squadrons/TF's will mutiny. The Maya sector is a good example of that.

kzt wrote:None of these other then the first and last one really has potential to scale. However you can't go from a couple of obsolete LACs to having built and trained an effective defense force capable of stopping a BC squadron in time to matter. So the problem is what can you do today that will support at least 250-500 systems that decide to go to war with the SL and also abandon the protection of the SLN.

There are certain systems that the SLN will fight for and other they will ignore because they can go back later on and reclaim them. In systems where there is a potential for confrontation with the League there would be a requirement for heavier defence, more pods, LAC's and hyper capable units. In systems with low chance of attack, a handful of LAC's to ward off pirates and some pods to beat on visiting BC's would suffice.

The goal is to give them the chance to build up a fleet so that 5-10 years down the road they would be less dependant on the GA for protection rather than expecting them to be able to go from 10 guys and a LAC to 1 million in uniform and 100 SD's in one year.

kzt wrote:This ignores the whole distance issue as parts of the SL are a long way from Haven sector.

It's a complex difficult problem.

I though Beowulf is almost in the middle of the League? This means they can reach any part of the League at will.

Sigs wrote:The GA does not have an obligation to protect every League Member, they only have to protect those truly vital systems. Some systems will end up with their local fleet detachment post independence weather it's 1 DD or 20 BC's.

The only person suggesting that they do have such an obligation is you. The rest of us have said repeatedly that only those systems willing to sign a mutual defense treaty get a defensive installation of some sort -- MOST of those would get MDMs, Mycroft, and LACs.

Sigs wrote:... individuals and entire ship/squadrons/TF's will mutiny. The Maya sector is a good example of that.

Nope, Maya is NOT an example of people mutinying as a reaction to League excesses, it is an example of pre-planned secession; the sort of thing that might inspire others to secede or mutiny.

Sigs wrote:The goal is to give them the chance to build up a fleet so that 5-10 years down the road they would be less dependant on the GA for protection rather than expecting them to be able to go from 10 guys and a LAC to 1 million in uniform and 100 SD's in one year.

The "goal" is to make successor states feel secure without a fleet. The GA isn't going to want to encourage hyper-capable expeditionary forces. They're going to want minimal hyper-capable warships wandering around to reduce the chance of war between successor states.

Sigs wrote:

kzt wrote:This ignores the whole distance issue as parts of the SL are a long way from Haven sector.

It's a complex difficult problem.

I though Beowulf is almost in the middle of the League? This means they can reach any part of the League at will.

Sigma Draconis/Beowulf is almost halfway to Manticore from Sol. Sol is the center of the League. If the League were square, that would put 3/4 of the League on the side opposite Beowulf. Since the League is NOT a square, there is significantly more than 3/4 of it opposite Manticore.

Weird Harold wrote:Sigma Draconis/Beowulf is almost halfway to Manticore from Sol. Sol is the center of the League. If the League were square, that would put 3/4 of the League on the side opposite Beowulf. Since the League is NOT a square, there is significantly more than 3/4 of it opposite Manticore.

Beowulf is 40 LY from Earth and 475 LY from Manticore.

As for Opposite side from Beowulf... so what? Half of the League space is closer to Beowulf than to Earth, the other half is closer to Earth than Beowulf but not by enough to make a practical difference.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:The GA does not have an obligation to protect every League Member, they only have to protect those truly vital systems. Some systems will end up with their local fleet detachment post independence weather it's 1 DD or 20 BC's.

The only person suggesting that they do have such an obligation is you. The rest of us have said repeatedly that only those systems willing to sign a mutual defense treaty get a defensive installation of some sort -- MOST of those would get MDMs, Mycroft, and LACs.

I highlighted it for you in case you missed it the first time.

Giving systems that have little to no military manpower, questionable loyalty and unknown intentions advanced weapon systems and ships is probably the quickest way to lose the war. What happens when one of those systems that leaves the League because of economic/trade considerations decides to sell a sample of the MDM pods? Suddenly every system the GA tries to hit has a much bigger bite. And if the MA does not have equivalent MDM's why would you want to give them a fully working example?

Sigs wrote:Beowulf is 40 LY from Earth and 475 LY from Manticore.

I stand corrected.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:... individuals and entire ship/squadrons/TF's will mutiny. The Maya sector is a good example of that.

Nope, Maya is NOT an example of people mutinying as a reaction to League excesses, it is an example of pre-planned secession; the sort of thing that might inspire others to secede or mutiny.

Yeah, and Maya sector accomplished that in peace time... what do you think will happen if the Mandarins try to use force on their member systems? Very good chance that the SLN will fragment quickly. What makes you think that the SLN naval personnel and marines are more loyal to the League than their home systems or even adoptive systems?

If it happened in Maya it is likely to happen elsewhere and when you add the Mandarins becoming oppressors in the core systems the equation changes.

Some personnel will desert and try to find a way home, others will organize mutinies, others will organize entire squadrons or TF's into deserting the SLN. Beating on the protectorates might be distasteful to FF and BF members, but beating on their own homes would be much more than distasteful and it would push them to fight back because if there is one thing, its that there is no real loyalty for the League in the vast majority of the bureaucrats, citizens or military.

Sigs wrote:Giving systems that have little to no military manpower, questionable loyalty and unknown intentions advanced weapon systems and ships is probably the quickest way to lose the war. What happens when one of those systems that leaves the League because of economic/trade considerations decides to sell a sample of the MDM pods? Suddenly every system the GA tries to hit has a much bigger bite. And if the MA does not have equivalent MDM's why would you want to give them a fully working example?

You are assuming the worst possible scenario and that the GA diplomats negotiating the treaties are idiots.

It is not "most of the successor states," it is "most of those deemed reliable" enough to sign a mutual defense
treaty.

Even within that "most" group of "most reliable" potential allies, there will be some variation. Some will get cadres to train locals and slots in GA trade schools. Others will get RHN surplus MDMs and LACs with a Moriarity style Light-Speed C3 setup. Some will get GA garrisons and some will get plans to build their own and slots at Saganami Island.

It all depends on the evaluation of the spies and the diplomats that write the treaties. Every system will be unique and have unique pros and cons.

One thing the GA is NOT going to do is zip into a system; offload ten-thousand Apollo system defense pods and a thousand front-line LACs with a freighter full of Mycroft modules and tech manuals and plans for everything; and ride off into the sunset with a hearty "Hi Ho Silver, Away!"

They are going to carefully vet each system and provide the level of technology that the system can afford and be trusted with.

Sigs wrote:I though Beowulf is almost in the middle of the League? This means they can reach any part of the League at will.

Define at will.

Look at the Map. It's BIG.