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Knife fighting with cm's

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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by darrell   » Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:03 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:
munroburton wrote:What I don't get is why the fields can't be reversed - effectively a 180 degree course change without turning the ship. Sure would save on reaction mass from all those turnover maneuvers.


They don't use reaction mass for turnover as long as the wedge is active though.

We saw detailed turnover maneuvers on reaction thrusters twice, First Hancock, and Battle of Cerberus. In both occasions it was because Honor wanted absolute stealth and came in ballistic entirely to attack range before wedges would come up.

Any other time a fleet is conducting turnover, they've been accelerating at whatever KPS^2, and obviously detected by the defenders who are also maneuvering within detection range.


Most references to turnover either states that turnover will happen in XXX minutes, just happened, or was accomplished XXX minutes ago. Doing a search of all books I found 7 examples where the mechanism of turnover happens.

Turnover is not quick, but takes some time to do. Ships definitely have a clearly defined bow and a stern, They are not interchangeable. There is multiple references that all warships physically turn 180 degrees, I can not find a single reference to the wedge reversing aspect.

Quote: "Shadow of Saganimi" Note: pinnaces: The fleet little vessels turned, keeping their noses aligned on Bogey Three, and went to maximum power, decelerating at six hundred gravities. Astern of them, the Nuncian LACs had also made turnover, but their deceleration rate was a hundred gravities lower than the pinnaces', and the range between the allied components of the small attack force opened quickly.

Quote: "A Call to Duty" Phobos was midway into turnover, and Ouvrard was rechecking the figures for their upcoming deceleration profile, when the ship ripped herself apart.
... clipped ...
“Here we go,” Grillo said. “No flare . . . no neutrino burst,” she said slowly, reading the data off her displays. “Looks like the reactor scrammed safely. From the acceleration profile, I’d say she was in turnover when the wedge went down.”


Quote: "A call to Arms" As for the other three ships, they would have to do another turnover if they hoped to do any more running themselves. Any such move would be relatively slow and instantly telegraphed

Quote: "A Short Victorious War" HMS Hotspur decelerated towards the bogies at over 51 KPS2 as her Warshawski sails channeled the grav wave's power. Nineteen minutes later, she flipped end for end, accelerating away from them until their overtake speed had dropped once more to thirty thousand KPS at a range of just under a hundred and fifty-eight million kilometers, and Lieutenant Commander

Quote: "War of Honor" "Understood," Honor said. When the bogeys flipped to begin decelerating towards Sidemore, they'd turn their own kilts directly towards Scotty's shipboard sensors.

Quote: "storm from the Shadows" "Flip us, Sterling," Michelle told Commander Casterlin.
"Aye, aye, Ma'am. Reversing heading now."
The entire task group flipped, putting its sterns towards Byng's battlecruisers and beginning to decelerate. Even with the pods deployed, Michelle's command had an advantage of almost a hundred gravities, and the rate of closure began to slow.


Quote: "Beginnings, Worlds of Honor 6" Travis frowned. “A pitch turn?” he asked quietly. Most turns he’d seen had been of the yaw variety, where the ship rotated along its vertical axis, instead of a pitch flip that sent the ship head over heels and briefly put the stronger but more sensor-opaque stress bands between the ship and the incoming threat.
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Louis R   » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:42 pm

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I find it rather unlikely that all the nodes in a ring are interchangable - even setting aside the alpha/beta distinction. While the upper and lower halves of an impeller ring are probably symetrical, the lateral nodes should be rather different from the dorsal/ventral nodes at least in setup and tuning, if not in actual construction [creating a planar effect, with relatively sharp boundaries, from what's essentially a point source dictates a broad set of extremely complex output signals]. It isn't much of a stretch to suppose that the forward and aft nodes, even in the same ring position, aren't operating identically either even if physically interchangeable - and that retuning them would take _much_ longer than flipping end for end does, if it can even be done outside a shipyard or a full-up repair ship.

Somtaaw wrote:
munroburton wrote:What I don't get is why the fields can't be reversed - effectively a 180 degree course change without turning the ship. Sure would save on reaction mass from all those turnover maneuvers.


They don't use reaction mass for turnover as long as the wedge is active though.

We saw detailed turnover maneuvers on reaction thrusters twice, First Hancock, and Battle of Cerberus. In both occasions it was because Honor wanted absolute stealth and came in ballistic entirely to attack range before wedges would come up.

Any other time a fleet is conducting turnover, they've been accelerating at whatever KPS^2, and obviously detected by the defenders who are also maneuvering within detection range.
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by munroburton   » Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:52 am

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I'm aware they do physically flip the ship as a consequence of only being able to accelerate in one direction. What I don't get is why.

The impeller wedges are focused fields of gravity. Presumably they focus forward of the ship to pull it forwards. Why can they not focus behind the ship as well?

Louis R wrote:I find it rather unlikely that all the nodes in a ring are interchangable - even setting aside the alpha/beta distinction. While the upper and lower halves of an impeller ring are probably symetrical, the lateral nodes should be rather different from the dorsal/ventral nodes at least in setup and tuning, if not in actual construction [creating a planar effect, with relatively sharp boundaries, from what's essentially a point source dictates a broad set of extremely complex output signals]. It isn't much of a stretch to suppose that the forward and aft nodes, even in the same ring position, aren't operating identically either even if physically interchangeable - and that retuning them would take _much_ longer than flipping end for end does, if it can even be done outside a shipyard or a full-up repair ship.


Yeah, that's basically the only explanation I can come up for it myself. It takes something like 45 minutes to start up a wedge, so presumably at least as much time to restart it in reverse gear.

Far longer than even a SD's ~24 minutes to complete a 180 degree turn(based on 12 for a 90 degree turn).

I suppose a sixteen million ton fort, with its bubble sidewall, might be the only space vehicle large enough to prefer reversing its wedge(if even possible) rather than physically turning.
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Louis R   » Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:22 pm

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That is not RFC's conception of how the drive works. Unfortunately, he's not a good-enough physicist to provide a fully self-consistent description of what he envisions. Hopefully someone in Bu9 will manage it, but for the moment, the essay in More than Honor is the best we have. I'm not going to repeat it here, but it is clear that the wedge is not at all a symmetric construct, which is why it's to be expected that the machinery generating it is also not symmetrical.


munroburton wrote:I'm aware they do physically flip the ship as a consequence of only being able to accelerate in one direction. What I don't get is why.

The impeller wedges are focused fields of gravity. Presumably they focus forward of the ship to pull it forwards. Why can they not focus behind the ship as well?

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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by MaxxQ   » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:45 pm

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Louis R wrote:That is not RFC's conception of how the drive works. Unfortunately, he's not a good-enough physicist to provide a fully self-consistent description of what he envisions. Hopefully someone in Bu9 will manage it, but for the moment, the essay in More than Honor is the best we have. I'm not going to repeat it here, but it is clear that the wedge is not at all a symmetric construct, which is why it's to be expected that the machinery generating it is also not symmetrical.


munroburton wrote:I'm aware they do physically flip the ship as a consequence of only being able to accelerate in one direction. What I don't get is why.

The impeller wedges are focused fields of gravity. Presumably they focus forward of the ship to pull it forwards. Why can they not focus behind the ship as well?



Bold mine. The request for more specifics is out there. When I get a response I can post is a question that is very much up in the air. This past weekend's meeting was mostly about getting House of Lies finished, and we're all busy with that.
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Louis R   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:50 pm

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The effort is very much appreciated. Self-consistent treatment of non-existent phenomena isn't trivial.

MaxxQ wrote:
Louis R wrote:That is not RFC's conception of how the drive works. Unfortunately, he's not a good-enough physicist to provide a fully self-consistent description of what he envisions. Hopefully someone in Bu9 will manage it, but for the moment, the essay in More than Honor is the best we have. I'm not going to repeat it here, but it is clear that the wedge is not at all a symmetric construct, which is why it's to be expected that the machinery generating it is also not symmetrical.



Bold mine. The request for more specifics is out there. When I get a response I can post is a question that is very much up in the air. This past weekend's meeting was mostly about getting House of Lies finished, and we're all busy with that.
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by darrell   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:53 pm

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Louis R wrote:That is not RFC's conception of how the drive works. Unfortunately, he's not a good-enough physicist to provide a fully self-consistent description of what he envisions. Hopefully someone in Bu9 will manage it, but for the moment, the essay in More than Honor is the best we have. I'm not going to repeat it here, but it is clear that the wedge is not at all a symmetric construct, which is why it's to be expected that the machinery generating it is also not symmetrical.


Louis R wrote:The effort is very much appreciated. Self-consistent treatment of non-existent phenomena isn't trivial.

MaxxQ wrote:Bold mine. The request for more specifics is out there. When I get a response I can post is a question that is very much up in the air. This past weekend's meeting was mostly about getting House of Lies finished, and we're all busy with that.


IMO only one thing needs to be done to make the wedge work, and that is for the ship to be placed closer to the back of the wedge instead of in the center.

By having more wedge to the front, that makes more gravtic "mass" or "energy" to the front, which would pull the ship forward. By having the planes further apart at the front, that would equalize the stresses, The bigger gravitic "mass" to the front is balanced by that "mass" being farther away.
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Rob the Fiend   » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:31 pm

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Isn't it as simple as: The attachements for the nodes are strong in one direction, needed for the 6-700+ G of acc,
if the wedge was reversible, the brackets would need to be 80-90% heavier.

IIRC in "A Call to Duty" the "half" ships was ripped apart when they tried to run the wedge through on set of nodes.
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