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The Apollo Triple Ripple

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Re: The Apollo Triple Ripple
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:28 am

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Rakhmamort wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Keyhole II is routinely rotated between available Keyhole drones. If more missile control is needed, they can switch to each keyhole drone managing its own brood. Each ship's Keyhole II can apparently control an entire squadron's missiles, so the problem isn't control links for a change, it is being able to launch as many missiles as you can control by NOT rotating links.


I'm going to need confirmation info for that. There is a limiting factor to the number of Apollo missiles a Keyhole II equipped ship can control. IMHO it is always the control links. My understanding is that the Keyhole II is the FTL extension of the control links.



The initial deployment of Apollo at Lovat, described how Apollo multipled ANY ships fire control by a factor of 8. You're not controlling every missile PLUS the Apollo birds, you control the Apollo birds ONLY, and THEY control their specific pods 8 missile brothers & sisters.


So your average Manticoran SDP, when Honor was standing off Filareta says something about how "each of my superdreadnoughts can fire well over 200 controlled missiles each", 200*8 Apollo Control Missiles = salvo's of 1600 missiles from each and every single Invictus SDP's even if they didnt have Keyhole-II for FTL fire control.


Even if you use an old Star Knight heavy cruiser, which has 12 missiles per broadisde but no ability to fire both broadsides at once like later ships. Even a Star Knight could fire a MINIMUM of 12 Apollo pods, and get a missile salvo of 96 missiles hitting any target with precision, instead of it's more usual 12. And that's also assuming the Star Knight doesn't have anywhere upto a 50% reserve on control links for battle damage.
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Re: The Apollo Triple Ripple
Post by munroburton   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:47 am

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Somtaaw wrote:Even if you use an old Star Knight heavy cruiser, which has 12 missiles per broadisde but no ability to fire both broadsides at once like later ships. Even a Star Knight could fire a MINIMUM of 12 Apollo pods, and get a missile salvo of 96 missiles hitting any target with precision, instead of it's more usual 12. And that's also assuming the Star Knight doesn't have anywhere upto a 50% reserve on control links for battle damage.


True. But neither a Star Knight nor a Sag-C can direct the Apollos with FTL transmissions. It's clear that there are separate fire control channels for FTL and LS links - there's a specific mention of them leaving the Apollo bird with a LS transceiver.

I asked a similar question a while back, why nobody had come up with a LS 'command' missile before if it allowed more down-range tactical computing power and heavier salvoes. I think the answer came down to, they couldn't tow enough pods to saturate their fire control anyway. They still have that problem to some extent - the Sag-Cs were only able to fire so many pods because their targets were coming at them and they'd had days to prepare.

Theisman did come up with the idea before RMN R&D, though - he'd slaved clusters of pods to forts in preparation for the Battle of Barnett, albeit to no fruition.
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Re: The Apollo Triple Ripple
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:10 pm

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Rakhmamort wrote:Honestly, I don't know how to react to that information. It looks like magic right now. 1 ship with Keyhole 2 has the ability to control, on its own, a thousand, ten thousand, a hundred thousand Apollo missiles. It only needs other ships to bring the missile pods coz 1 ship couldn't carry it all.


There is a limit, probably not much more than a single squadron's salvos per KHII unit -- or possibly half of a single Invictus' load-out. You could dump the entire magazine for one humongous salvo using both KHs; sort of like Adm Gold Peak did just before she was captured?

munroburton wrote:I asked a similar question a while back, why nobody had come up with a LS 'command' missile before if it allowed more down-range tactical computing power and heavier salvoes. I think the answer came down to, they couldn't tow enough pods to saturate their fire control anyway.


A disadvantage to the ACM is that missile storms tend to "clump" and fly in formation. That would make it easier to take out a brood because the same prediction apply to all eight + ACM. If you take out an ACM you've effectively taken out its brood as well.

That factor is outweighed by FTL comm speeds at range, but not with only LS links.
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Re: The Apollo Triple Ripple
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:22 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Rakhmamort wrote:Using Keyhole 2 as rotating control links have already been mentioned a couple times in this forum. I actually like the idea since the Apollo missile AI has more capability than the standard MDM and I believe it can handle 'less' hand-holding from the ship.


Keyhole II is routinely rotated between available Keyhole drones. If more missile control is needed, they can switch to each keyhole drone managing its own brood. Each ship's Keyhole II can apparently control an entire squadron's missiles, so the problem isn't control links for a change, it is being able to launch as many missiles as you can control by NOT rotating links.
True, though it's not impossible that there's some not yet mentioned upper limit on how many 'nearby' Keyhole IIs can be talking without causing interference. (As Duckk's post, chastising us for oversimplifying our take on RFC's example, hints)

But it seems improbable that any such limit is as low as 1 simultaneous Keyhole II transmitting per squadron. So there appears to be some headroom use more of the available Keyholes to control more total missiles.
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Re: The Apollo Triple Ripple
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:48 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:But it seems improbable that any such limit is as low as 1 simultaneous Keyhole II transmitting per squadron. So there appears to be some headroom use more of the available Keyholes to control more total missiles.


Standard Practice seems to be that the Datalink network picks KHII units at random from all available to handle each salvo or partial salvo for really big salvos. Another sequence of KHII units would be chosen for the next salvo(s) so that there would be one (or one set) of KHII units transmitting for each salvo in flight rather than one KHII controlling all missiles in flight.

If there's only one ship, the random number sequence just chooses which side transmits for any one burst.

If there is a hundred KHII units available -- as in a massive Mycroft installation -- then the random number sequence moves control around one hundred different transmitters one at a time for each salvo.

The single ship scenario means that each KHII transmits more often, while the Mycroft scenario means each Mycroft module may only transmit once or twice in an entire engagement. Even if a single mycroft only transmits to a fraction of the swarm the datalink network would choose from the entire constellation of KHIIs.
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Re: The Apollo Triple Ripple
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:10 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:But it seems improbable that any such limit is as low as 1 simultaneous Keyhole II transmitting per squadron. So there appears to be some headroom use more of the available Keyholes to control more total missiles.


Standard Practice seems to be that the Datalink network picks KHII units at random from all available to handle each salvo or partial salvo for really big salvos. Another sequence of KHII units would be chosen for the next salvo(s) so that there would be one (or one set) of KHII units transmitting for each salvo in flight rather than one KHII controlling all missiles in flight.

If there's only one ship, the random number sequence just chooses which side transmits for any one burst.

If there is a hundred KHII units available -- as in a massive Mycroft installation -- then the random number sequence moves control around one hundred different transmitters one at a time for each salvo.

The single ship scenario means that each KHII transmits more often, while the Mycroft scenario means each Mycroft module may only transmit once or twice in an entire engagement. Even if a single mycroft only transmits to a fraction of the swarm the datalink network would choose from the entire constellation of KHIIs.
Not disagreeing much, but I'd think once you got to the outer system, within say a 30 lightseconds of the hyper limit, that it'd be too expensive to seed Mycroft nodes heavily enough to have dozens within reasonable range of a target.

I'd guess more like maybe 5 at most, depending on their deployment pattern (grid, hex latice, etc) and how much of the MDM's range you wanted to use.
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Re: The Apollo Triple Ripple
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:40 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:

Keyhole II is routinely rotated between available Keyhole drones. If more missile control is needed, they can switch to each keyhole drone managing its own brood. Each ship's Keyhole II can apparently control an entire squadron's missiles, so the problem isn't control links for a change, it is being able to launch as many missiles as you can control by NOT rotating links.
True, though it's not impossible that there's some not yet mentioned upper limit on how many 'nearby' Keyhole IIs can be talking without causing interference. (As Duckk's post, chastising us for oversimplifying our take on RFC's example, hints)

But it seems improbable that any such limit is as low as 1 simultaneous Keyhole II transmitting per squadron. So there appears to be some headroom use more of the available Keyholes to control more total missiles.


I don't know why no one is using BoMas numbers as a guide. From memory, each ship in 8th fleet controlled ~6700 attack missiles, or just over 800 control links per SD. And that's with 30 some other Keyhole equipped ships in formation. I guess this doesn't say anything about maximum capability, but it does suggest a lower end of the ceiling.
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Re: The Apollo Triple Ripple
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:28 pm

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Theemile wrote:I guess this doesn't say anything about maximum capability, but it does suggest a lower end of the ceiling.


Au contraire.

The Battle of Manticore was a do or die situation and the RMN should have been sending everything possible at the RHN. If those numbers suggest anything, they would suggest a maximum rather than a minimum.
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Re: The Apollo Triple Ripple
Post by Vince   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:42 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Theemile wrote:I guess this doesn't say anything about maximum capability, but it does suggest a lower end of the ceiling.


Au contraire.

The Battle of Manticore was a do or die situation and the RMN should have been sending everything possible at the RHN. If those numbers suggest anything, they would suggest a maximum rather than a minimum.

Go back and look at Theemile's full post. It specifically refers only to 8th fleet (Harrington) controlling missiles in the salvo it fired at 5th Fleet (Chin). It isn't concerned with D'Orville's (Home Fleet), Kuzak's (3rd Fleet) fire at 2nd Fleet (Tourville), or Alistair McKeon's (attached to 3rd Fleet) fire at 5th Fleet (Chin).
At All Costs, Chapter 68 wrote:Honor Alexander-Harrington's eyes were brown ice as Theophile Kgari, in a virtuoso display of astrogation, dropped the massed superdreadnoughts of Eighth Fleet exactly where she'd told him to in a single jump right out of the center of the resonance zone.
She didn't look at the pathetic remnants of Third Fleet's icons. Didn't even glance at the other icons, representing Lester Tourville's task force. She had attention only for Genevieve Chin's superdreadnoughts, and her voice was a frozen soprano sword.
"Engage the enemy, Andrea," Lady Dame Honor Alexander-Harrington said.
* * *
Genevieve Chin's heart began beating once again, and her instant instinct to break off eased a bit as the range registered. At almost seventy-three million kilometers, the new arrivals were well outside even MDMs' powered range. Besides, there were only thirty-eight of them—less than half her own strength, even if all of them were wallers and not carriers.
"Turn us around, Andrianna," she said. "It looks like we've got some fresh customers."
* * *
Eighth Fleet released the five thousand Apollo pods which had been tractored to its SD(P)s' hulls, then spent another three minutes rolling additional pods. In all, it deployed a total of 7,776, almost exactly half its total ammunition allotment, given the Andermani ships' lighter magazine capacity.
Then it fired.

***Snip***

"Drives going active . . . now, Your Grace," Andrea Jaruwalski said, and the missiles thirteen million kilometers short of Fifth Fleet suddenly brought their final drive stages on-line. Their icons burned abruptly bright and strong once again as they lit off their impellers . . . and hurled themselves at their targets under full shipboard control.
They blazed in across the remaining distance, tracking with clean, lethal precision, and their ballistic flight had dropped them off of the Republic's sensors. Chin's ships knew approximately where they were, but not exactly, and their supporting EW platforms and penetration aids came up with their impellers. They hurtled in across the Republican SD(P)s' defensive envelope at over half the speed of light, and the sudden eruption of jamming, of Dragon's Teeth spilling false targets, hammered those defenses mercilessly.
The fact that the missile defense crews aboard those ships had known, without question, that the attacking missiles would be clumsy, half-blind, only made a disastrous situation even worse.
Eighth Fleet had deployed almost eight thousand pods. Those pods launched 69,984 missiles. Of that total, 7,776 were Apollo birds. Another 8,000 were electronic warfare platforms. Which meant that 54,208 carried laser heads—laser heads which homed on Genevieve Chin's ships with murderously accurate targeting.
Fifth Fleet's missile defenses did their best.
Their best was not good enough.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

Note that Honor left all her CLACs at Trevor's Star prior to bringing in the remainder of her SDs through the Junction in a mass transit, so the figure of 38 is all wallers (I don't know how many of that 38 had Keyhole II).
Last edited by Vince on Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Apollo Triple Ripple
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:59 pm

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Vince wrote:Eighth Fleet released the five thousand Apollo pods which had been tractored to its SD(P)s' hulls, then spent another three minutes rolling additional pods. In all, it deployed a total of 7,776, almost exactly half its total ammunition allotment, given the Andermani ships' lighter magazine capacity.
Then it fired.
Boldface is my emphasis.

Note that Honor left all her CLACs at Trevor's Star prior to bringing in the remainder of her SDs through the Junction in a mass transit, so the figure of 38 is all wallers.[/quote]

That doesn't change the point in any way. 8th fleet dumped half its ammunition allotment in one salvo; that is NOT a normal salvo for 8th fleet and must therefore be a maximum or near maximum for what 8th Fleet could control.
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