Brexit Referendum

A person can lead a horse to water but can't force the horse to drink.

Here's the real problem with unlimited immigration. A person(s) can distort any vote by sending immigrants in to change a vote. So what happens, the true will of the people is being usurp by some political elites by shipping immigrants into state/country. Now, apply this logic over a longer time period and presto no true democracy.

smr wrote:Here's the real problem with unlimited immigration. A person(s) can distort any vote by sending immigrants in to change a vote.

I am starting to think that you may not be as keen an observer of european politics as I thought you were.

Because, if you were, you would have noticed that that sort of thing isn't happening. There are rules designed to discourage it in order to be allowed to vote in another EU country, you must be a resident of that country; meaning (in most cases) that you've been living in that country for some time.

So what happens, the true will of the people is being usurp by some political elites by shipping immigrants into state/country. Now, apply this logic over a longer time period and presto no true democracy.

Name a single election in Europe where this actually happened. Come on. A single one. A single point of data. A single scrap of evidence that an EU member state interfered with the internal processes of another by sending over voters, or a single instance where "political elites" encouraged immigration to get support for something the native people were overwhelmingly against.

The time period that it takes? Can the bureaucrats just issue a new regulation? As far as a single country happening in the EU...has not happened but give it time. Did not Germany just propose no other country should be allowed to leave according to the news or was that someone floating an idea out their. Correct me if I am wrong, did Germany just raid a mosque where they had automatic weapons and ammo stored!

The E wrote:

smr wrote:Here's the real problem with unlimited immigration. A person(s) can distort any vote by sending immigrants in to change a vote.

I am starting to think that you may not be as keen an observer of european politics as I thought you were.

Because, if you were, you would have noticed that that sort of thing isn't happening. There are rules designed to discourage it in order to be allowed to vote in another EU country, you must be a resident of that country; meaning (in most cases) that you've been living in that country for some time.

So what happens, the true will of the people is being usurp by some political elites by shipping immigrants into state/country. Now, apply this logic over a longer time period and presto no true democracy.

Name a single election in Europe where this actually happened. Come on. A single one. A single point of data. A single scrap of evidence that an EU member state interfered with the internal processes of another by sending over voters, or a single instance where "political elites" encouraged immigration to get support for something the native people were overwhelmingly against.

The E wrote:

smr wrote:Here's the real problem with unlimited immigration. A person(s) can distort any vote by sending immigrants in to change a vote.

I am starting to think that you may not be as keen an observer of european politics as I thought you were.

Because, if you were, you would have noticed that that sort of thing isn't happening. There are rules designed to discourage it in order to be allowed to vote in another EU country, you must be a resident of that country; meaning (in most cases) that you've been living in that country for some time.

So what happens, the true will of the people is being usurp by some political elites by shipping immigrants into state/country. Now, apply this logic over a longer time period and presto no true democracy.

Name a single election in Europe where this actually happened. Come on. A single one. A single point of data. A single scrap of evidence that an EU member state interfered with the internal processes of another by sending over voters, or a single instance where "political elites" encouraged immigration to get support for something the native people were overwhelmingly against.

Yeah... http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/f ... l-election

Additionally, the following cannot vote in a UK general election:
[snip]
EU citizens resident in the UK (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)

These were the rules used for the EU referendum.

smr wrote:The time period that it takes? Can the bureaucrats just issue a new regulation? As far as a single country happening in the EU...has not happened but give it time.

These sentences make no sense on a syntactical level. Learn how to write english.

Did not Germany just propose no other country should be allowed to leave according to the news or was that someone floating an idea out their.

Even if that was proposed (it wasn't), it's a total non-starter. In order for such an amendment to be accepted, it would have to be ratified by every single member state (because it would be an amendment to the Treaty of Lisbon), a process which takes months even under the best of circumstances.

Correct me if I am wrong, did Germany just raid a mosque where they had automatic weapons and ammo stored!

Never mind that this is a complete non-sequitur (Where the hell have you learned how to argue?), this is a story which has not been confirmed yet. It's based on a posting by a member of the Hesse Landtag about a raid on a grocery store near a mosque (not a mosque, as you seem to believe) in neighboring North-Rhine Westphalia. It has to be stressed that this has been outright denied during a Q&A session of the North-Rhine Westphalian government.

So, for the moment, this looks very much like the kind of rumour idiots would spread on the internet because gullible people like you would very much like to believe them.


I would also like to reiterate my request for some actual data from you, as stated in my previous post here. If this sort of vote dilution is a real thread, then there has to be some sort of indications for it actually happening. I mean, the numbers required to shift any vote, especially on a national level, should be fairly noticeable. It should be easy for you to find some data to support your thesis, so don't be shy. Just one time in this debate I would like to see you provide some actual research instead of your paranoia-tinged fantasies.

smr wrote:A person can lead a horse to water but can't force the horse to drink.

Here's the real problem with unlimited immigration. A person(s) can distort any vote by sending immigrants in to change a vote. So what happens, the true will of the people is being usurp by some political elites by shipping immigrants into state/country.

And exactly who do you imagine these sinister figures with the ability to direct immigration patterns of massive numbers of immigrants are that are managing to shuffle huge numbers of people between nations not just for a trip but for a long term relocation and then also directing their votes in elections after they become residents of their new homes such that they can sway the outcomes of those elections?


Because what you just described kind of sounds like the plot to a bad hollywood dystopian movie where the writers couldn't really be bothered to go to the trouble of making the evil plans of their bad guys... you know... make sense.

In other news, apparently the Danes have taken a good look at the clusterfuck that is the Brexit and their support for remaining in the EU has spiked considerably... so that "who's next" talk that was circulating speculating that the Brexit was the first domino to fall as part of some kind of wave that was going to sweep the EU?

Yeah... maybe not so much.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 20271.html



(And this is pretty much the most succinct explanation of how the Brexit campaigners have screwed themselves that I've seen):


http://www.vox.com/2016/7/5/12098156/br ... nn-diagram

biochem wrote:
It could impact you more directly than that. Some of the Brexit proponents are proposing an alternative to the EU of a similar treaty but instead of being between Britain, France, Germany etc; it would be between Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc. Want to joint EU#2?

We had one. It was called the Commonwealth. Then we went & joined the EU & everyone in this country seemed to forget about it.

gcomeau wrote:

munroburton wrote:Well, that was an interesting night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_r ... um/results

The United Kingdom as a whole has voted to leave the European Union, by about 52% to 48%. Or has it?

England: 53% Leave
Wales: 52.5% Leave
Northern Ireland: 56% Remain
Scotland: 62% Remain
(Gibraltar: 96% Remain)

Hell of a mess. Sinn Fein is already calling for Irish reunification and the SNP is taking a hardline stance that Scotland has spoken decisively. The pound is at a +30-year low.

The ability of reactionaries to shoot themselves in the foot never ceases to amaze...

Oh, so the choice of a group of citizens of a country to take back control of their country from a group of foreign unelected bodies is reactionary is it?

munroburton wrote:

biochem wrote:That would be a logical conclusion as the EU continues to deteriorate.

The only thing that would prevent that is if Germany runs a behind the scenes Coup d'etat on Brussels and grabs the rest of the EU by their throats and starts dictating to the rest of them. The UK would never stand for it. The rest of Europe just might especially if all of the rough stuff is behind the scenes and the other leaders are allowed to save face publicly.

Logic? There's little logical about this whole thing.

By now Brussels has worked up a Plan B - entice Scotland and Northern Ireland to leave the UK. That means no more UK. Consider what that would do to the pound.

That will NEVER happen. If it did then both the Basques & the Catalans would be the next in line to break away, citing the example of Scotland & Northern Ireland & both France & Spain would never stand for it.

They do not want to be opening that can of worms.

Also, speaking of Brussels there could be a revival of the movement for the two regions of Belgium, the Flemish North & the French speaking Walloonians to separate.