Last use for SL SD captured

Sigs wrote:So you are encouraging arming potential enemies with modern weapons? Did the US supply Iraq with modern weapons and equipment in 2003 right before they invaded?

No, that was the role of France.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Yep, I fully expect that to happen. Just like the US supplied F-4s to Iraq and F14s to Iran.

So you are encouraging arming potential enemies with modern weapons? Did the US supply Iraq with modern weapons and equipment in 2003 right before they invaded?

Weird Harold wrote:It doesn't make any sense to make a treaty to defend someone and then do less than your best to defend them. Manticore specifically and the GA in general don't have the ships or manpower to defend newly independent systems, so they need to provide defense in some other manner.

I've said several times that every system is unique and "military assistance" needs to be tailored to the needs and reliability of the system being assisted. That does NOT mean "give everyone top-of-the-line technology." But by the same token, it requires that systems be offered adequate defenses according to their need and at a minimum, I think that would have to start with MDM system defense missiles with appropriate command and control elements. That could be a wide range of MDM developments.

I don't think Manticore has a single-drive system defense missile in inventory; it has been about twenty-years since such moon-based missiles were standard system defenses and they were totally inadequate then. I suppose they could come up with something in a pod-based ERM for cheapskates who don't want to invest in MDM defenses.

Whether they provide last-war capacitor-powered MDMs of the latest Micro-fusion powered Apollo; FTL control links or light-speed "Moriarity" grade systems, the tech shared is going to inevitably be better than "Solarian standard."

Well Stalin and the USSR had something to offer while a newly independent system with a "fleet" of 25 LAC's doesn't really have the same advantages. The advantage for the Allies was that as long as the USSR remained in the war most of the fighting was done by them. In this scenario if the GA props up a bunch of independent states they would still carry the bulk of the fighting so the advantage is not there.

Weird Harold wrote:The whole point of a web of mutual defense treaties is to deter would-be Conquistadors. IF everyone else has the same tech-level having GA tech is not a big enough advantage to encourage aggression.

Yeah it shouldn't BUT that has not stopped all that many wars in history.

There is a difference between post war defence treaties and wartime defence treaties. Arming potential enemies with equal weapons while you are engaged in a multi-front war with multiple enemies some of which you know little about seems like a fighting against yourself.

Weird Harold wrote:When the League begins to collapse -- probably within a year of Beowulf's secession vote when the second core system secedes -- it will fall apart like the Soviet Union did; within a matter of months. The image of a watermelon tossed off the Sears Tower comes to mind.

And why would it collapse so fast? The SLN is impotent against the GA but most of it's member systems are in fact quite defenceless and the very actions to disarm the SLN run the risk of prolonging the collapse.

The comparison of the USSR to the League only goes so far and trying to model the collapse of a single nation on one planet to a political entity that has 2,000+ members leads to faulty assumptions.

Giving ADAQUATE PROTECTION does not mean giving the secrets to your technology. Give them manty system defence pods and mycroft means giving them MDM's, micro fusion reactors, and apollo, three very important techs. There are ways to give them Adaquate protection without that.

newly liberated systems will need protection against 2 main threats. Only sell technology that haven can build, this provides income for the GA to fund it's war effort.

The first threat is against pirates. To defend against pirates, how about haven building a couple squarons of LAC's to sell, an upgraded version of the series 282 LAC's but with enhanced automation, more CM tubes, CM's and PDLC's. Where the series 282 are 17,750 tons
, the series 393's (for lack of a better name) would be about 20K tons.

To counter the SLN trying to retake the system, build a system defense missile using ERM technology, and pair it with missile pods and the moriarity system used by haven. ERM's have about the range of the cataphract, but with warheads bigger than capital ship missiles, 5,000 pods should easily win against a force twice the size crandal hit spindle with.

By giving them better but not best technology, if the MA, RF, or SL got the technology, the GA could still out range them.

Installing mycroft in a system doesn't give them anything. It's like giving someone skynet. It's all networked modified KH2s running the logic provided by the RMN. Once it is installed by the RMN the recipient of this gift is NEVER taking it out, as you cannot approach the control or weapon nodes without being engaged.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:When the League begins to collapse -- probably within a year of Beowulf's secession vote when the second core system secedes -- it will fall apart like the Soviet Union did; within a matter of months. The image of a watermelon tossed off the Sears Tower comes to mind.

And why would it collapse so fast? The SLN is impotent against the GA but most of it's member systems are in fact quite defenceless and the very actions to disarm the SLN run the risk of prolonging the collapse.

The comparison of the USSR to the League only goes so far and trying to model the collapse of a single nation on one planet to a political entity that has 2,000+ members leads to faulty assumptions.

You are apparently reversed on how the SL is going to come apart. it is going to disintegrate from the outside in.

First ot leave would be Beowulf's daughter colonies. I expect them to leave the SL within 3 months of Beowulf leaving.

Most of the protectorates hate the SL and will jump on any chance to succeed. When the protectorates start learning that other protectorates were successful in leaving the SL, along with beowulf and her daughter colonies, suddenly there will be many hundreds of rebellions (1,000+?) and in a few months there won't be very many protectorates.

Next to leave will be systems in the shell. A large percentage of them used to be protectorates but became full members of the SL as a matter of self protection. They will be happy to leave if given just the least excuse.

Last to leave will be core systems. As a matter of fact I expect the SL to survive in name only with just a couple hundred core systems remaining when they sue for peace against the GA.

kzt wrote:Installing mycroft in a system doesn't give them anything. It's like giving someone skynet. It's all networked modified KH2s running the logic provided by the RMN. Once it is installed by the RMN the recipient of this gift is NEVER taking it out, as you cannot approach the control or weapon nodes without being engaged.

keyhole two has FTL control links, so yes, giving them mycroft does give them BOTH APOLLO and FTL COMMUNICATIONS.

I specified Moriarty because that system does not give them either Apollo or FTL communications. It is also lower tech to build.

No, puts them in their system. Which is pretty much identical to claiming that deploying a RMN SDp squadron gives them FTL, MDMs, recon drones and compact fusion bottles. All you have to do is take them, either from a SDp squadron or a distributed automated defense system that controls thousands of extremely lethal missiles and whose individual nodes are reasonably protected from close in threats.

In both cases it's easier said than done.

darrell wrote:newly liberated systems will need protection against 2 main threats. Only sell technology that haven can build, this provides income for the GA to fund it's war effort.

The first threat is against pirates. To defend against pirates, how about haven building a couple squarons of LAC's to sell, an upgraded version of the series 282 LAC's but with enhanced automation, more CM tubes, CM's and PDLC's. Where the series 282 are 17,750 tons
, the series 393's (for lack of a better name) would be about 20K tons.

Why not just sell systems the Cimmeterre A models the RHN recently replaced?

Manticore is NOT going to be the sole source of 'Haven Sector' tech. The Andermani have MDM tech; Erewhon is already selling "Manticore Lite" weapons to Maya; Grayson has an economy to rebuild; Haven has a lot of military tech to surplus (not necessarily first-line.) Pandora's box is open and Manticore is NOT in control of who gets what tech except what they are holding back even from their GA partners.

The tech supplied needs to be adequate to the needs of the system receiving it; if their neighbors aren't interested in mutual defense with the GA or a GA member, the need may be to counter Andermani Tech of some level. Or the need may be to only counter pre-war Masadan tech.

Every system is Unique and should receive adequate defenses for their situation -- and to some extent, their pocketbooks.

IMHO, minimum for any system is MDM pods with Moriarity/Mycroft C3 and modern LAC squadrons. Who maintains the installations and who controls the spares and tech data determines how secure the tech is from MAlign spies in that particular location.

Included in any military assistance program is training of troops and specialists in the operation of supplied equipment -- not necessarily repair or theory of operation. There is far more to what I expect from the GA than simply providing hardware and tech manuals.

It is a minimum because the minimum tech to overcome lesser systems is out of Manticoran control and potential adversaries might have it. The PNE is incommunicado on Torch, but they might not be all of the RHN's rogues. Who knows what kind of controls The IAN has on it's anti-Manticore malcontents or the technology it got from Manticore. The less provided in the way of defensive systems, the broader the base a potential adversary can buy or steal tech to defeat it.

Manticore gives its tech to its real allies, that help both the Alliance, and Manticore. Which is why Grayson got the full tech bundles, Erewhon got most of it, and piddly little Zanzibar & Alizon got little to nothing from tech advancement. Then the IAN became a full ally, receives full tech advancement, before Haven flips sides and also became a "full ally".

That's pretty good evidence Manticore only really gives it's full technology, to people who will actually fight, not just be at best a tripwire and somewhere my merchants can go to sell things to help pay for the war.

Any ex-League member systems, are not going to get the full tech balance, it's just not viable. They might sign Mutual Defense Pacts, but everybody knows that means "Grand Alliance defends me, and I contribute pretty much nothing except admitting I did it", rather like Zanzibar & Alizon.


The real allies in the Grand Alliance are Star Empire of Manticore, Haven, and Beowulf with Andermani Empire being a unofficial member to give the Alliance an alternative option for chasing Mesa. If it weren't for deliberately trying to keep distance, the Andermani Empire probably would have stayed on as a full member.

Somtaaw wrote:and piddly little Zanzibar & Alizon got little to nothing from tech advancement.

Our only look at Zanzibar and Alizon's defenses were before Apollo but they both had the LAC squadrons and MDM System defense missiles. Neither side was fielding Moriarity or Mycroft at the time, so they didn't have those C3 systems. They both apparently did have FTL comms.

Essentially, Zanzibar and Alizon are the template for what I consider minimum defenses.

Weird Harold wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:and piddly little Zanzibar & Alizon got little to nothing from tech advancement.

Our only look at Zanzibar and Alizon's defenses were before Apollo but they both had the LAC squadrons and MDM System defense missiles. Neither side was fielding Moriarity or Mycroft at the time, so they didn't have those C3 systems. They both apparently did have FTL comms.

Essentially, Zanzibar and Alizon are the template for what I consider minimum defenses.

That I can mostly see. There's no reason to be giving C3 systems to former Verge and Shell members, but LACs and clusters of MDM pods (capacitor, not fusion) would be more than sufficient to deter pirates and upto medium sized FF forces even without the Moriarty.

The FTL comms had so many iterations, I can't imagine more than perhaps a central "system defense HQ" will have a recent FTL comm, just to check if newly arrived forces are friendlies. More of a throwback to Second Yeltsin and the very very early iteration of FTL drones, rather than all up Ghost Rider spinoff's that were developed later.