Defensive pods

Annachie wrote:One question.
What type of defensive pofs are we talking here?

System defense pods to take on ships?

CM defense pods for fleet action?

CM defense pods for system defence?

Because I could see a use for that last one in a larger/important system.

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He's talking about ship-launched half-pods carrying four Dazzler-style missiles (more or less the same size as regular attack missiles) that could be deployed away from a ship, that would maintain formation with said ship, to protect it from incoming attack missiles, as a supplement to standard CM launches from CM tubes aboard the ship itself. The Dazzlers would act as decoys/blinders to the sensors of the incoming missiles, either confusing or attracting the incoming missiles, thus reducing their effectiveness in taking out the ship.

The defense missiles would only have a single drive, as they wouldn't need to go all the way to an enemy ship, but their pods would be deployed far enough out that these missiles could act as a third defensive layer (in addition to CMs and Point Defense), but would actually have the range to end up being the first layer of defense, with CMs the second, and PDLCs the third. Of course, rolling ship could be considered a fourth layer, but I'm speaking of active defenses.

CM pods discussed in this thread were a bit of a thread derail, that has caused some confusion as to what he is suggesting.

Annachie wrote:One question.
What type of defensive pofs are we talking here?

System defense pods to take on ships?

CM defense pods for fleet action?

CM defense pods for system defence?

Because I could see a use for that last one in a larger/important system.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

None of the above.

The defensive pod is a drone that launches dazzlers to blind incoming missiles and then puts itself as a very inviting target for the missiles that are suddenly looking for a viable target during the end phase of their attack run.

There is a need for this pod because:
1) The number of missiles in current battlefield conditions have reached a point that there are far too many for CMs and laser clusters to handle.
2) You can only have so many laser clusters and CM control links.
3) Ships have limited number of decoys they can launch (especially smaller ships)
4) The SLN's naval technology isn't as mature as the GAs and the GA's older tricks would still be effective on what the SLN would be fielding in the near future.
5) Manticore&Grayson industries are shot to hell, their shipbuilding capabilities are down to zero and they need to make sure their current ships now survive until they start building more of them.
6) Building a factory for 'older' tech is easier than building one for turn-key, top of the line components.

MaxxQ wrote:Pod mobility isn't really a new thing. Pods are already mobile. The degree to which they are mobile *might* be a new thing, if you wish to define it that way.

The pods currently used by the RMN (and even the older pods) all have RCS thrusters. These are required to spread the pods out after being deployed and to align them on the attack axis. However, you state later that you wish for them to be able to maintain stationkeeping with the ship they are to protect, and that brings up other cans of worms. It would definitely need an impeller drive, which requires certain design considerations. These considerations *may* make it difficult to design a pod like you describe that could work with standard pod-launching equipment (as BuNine has defined it).

I'm aware of the basic mobility the current pods have but we both agree that it is not enough for what I was proposing.

As for the pod being equipped with impellers and that leading to a design considerations that would end up not working with the standard pod launchers, I leave that to the engineers.

As I said in my first post, the shape is just 'nice to have' to make storage easier for pod based designs. If the designers can find a way to shape the half-pods that will fit the standard pod launching equipment, well and good. If not, they are pods and originally, pods are towed, limpeted and/or tractored.

Also, even half a pod (flatpack) is nearly twice the size of a standard Star Knight/Fearless recon drone (which is the most current drone we have blocked-out at the moment), so these half-pods will absolutely need to be launched from pod bays. As the bays are designed now, this may be difficult to do (note, I said difficult, not impossible) while still maintaining a standard attack missile loadout. Forex, look at the following three images for the Agamemnon:

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/A ... -487154356

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/A ... -486663899

http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/A ... -486663893

That pod arrangement makes it difficult to swap out one pod for another, although there is provision to get the outer layer of pods onto the inner launch rails, as well as transferring from damaged rails to operational ones. But the question is: where do you place these defensive missile pods? I suppose you could seed one per four-pod salvo, but how many ship commanders would be willing to give up 25% of their attack capability for defensive missiles such as these?

Or, you could only have the defensive pods at the aft end of the bay (first pods launched, then placed in position before you get to the attack missile pods), except if you need to get your attack missiles out Right Now!

I understand your points. As I said, doctrine on its use will still be developed. But considering that these are defensive pods, mobile defensive pods which have been engineered to have high endurance, the ship can simply dump them the moment the enemy is detected and let them position themselves and keep station from the start.
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Edit: Re: Doctrine
I am sure that part of the tests is synchronizing the defensive pods' Dazzlers/drone capability with the offensive salvo's Dazzlers and Dragons Teeth.

Don't misunderstand - I'm not trying to shoot down your thoughts on this. I'm just trying to work through the ways that it *might* work, but there are other things to take into consideration. Oh, and SD(P)s don't have much more room in the bays than BC(P)s. They're packed as tightly as the Aggie's bays.

I don't feel that you are shooting down the idea. I'm actually happy somebody is really talking about the concept/design problems instead of going off in every direction.
As for choosing defense pods over ship killer pods, that, honestly is on the tactical commander's lap. However, I chose the pod (half-pod) lay-out so non-pod-layers can also use them.
Smaller ships that only has a couple of ECM drones in their inventory can supplement them with a couple of half-pods that are tractored/limpeted/towed.

OTOH, David has hinted at new podlayer designs that might be able to do what you want fairly easily. I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine on what these new designs might look like, as I haven't seen or heard what he has in mind (no, I don't get to see everything).

Hopefully, the new designs can handle something like this. The missile rich environment is totally getting out of hand. Right now Apollo's capabilities are already frightening, imagine if Shannon's tinkering end up coupling Apollo plus Haven's rotating control link solution to handling very very large salvos.

Rakhmamort wrote:

Annachie wrote:One question.
What type of defensive pofs are we talking here?

System defense pods to take on ships?

CM defense pods for fleet action?

CM defense pods for system defence?

Because I could see a use for that last one in a larger/important system.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

None of the above.

The defensive pod is a drone that launches dazzlers to blind incoming missiles and then puts itself as a very inviting target for the missiles that are suddenly looking for a viable target during the end phase of their attack run.

You would have had an easier time of getting your concept across by calling it a drone in the first place. Take a Lorelei drone, weld a couple of CM launchers and magazines from a LAC onto it.

It's a concept I've thought of myself, but the primary issue stands - fire control.

1) The number of missiles in current battlefield conditions have reached a point that there are far too many for CMs and laser clusters to handle.

Has it, though?

Battle of Solon - 1 of 2 RMN late-gen SD(P)s survived Moriarty and Giscard's trap(outnumbered 6 to 1 on enemy ground)
Battle of Zanzibar - RMN's first-generation SD(P)s engaged a RHN force three times its size - which had to pull back and reammunition before wiping out RMN ships with empty magazines
Battle of Lovat - No RMN casualties
Battle of Manticore - Outnumbered 6 to 1 in podlayers for the first phase, with much of the RMN's first-generation SD(P)s and obsolete SDs present and surprised by the Donkey.
Battle of Manticore 2 - 2,000 casualties, no ships lost.

Had Home Fleet's SD(P)s all been replaced with Invictuses or at least refitted with Keyhole 2, Second Fleet would not have succeeded. That was the whole point of Theisman's gamble - to end the war before that happened and victory became impossible.

The RMN managed to get well over a hundred of those Invictuses commissioned after first Manticore. I don't think they're too worried about lack of counter-missiles at the moment!

munroburton wrote:You would have had an easier time of getting your concept across by calling it a drone in the first place. Take a Lorelei drone, weld a couple of CM launchers and magazines from a LAC onto it.

It's a concept I've thought of myself, but the primary issue stands - fire control.

Repeating myself again. NOT launching CMs! Using single drive Dazzlers!

How difficult is that to grasp???

Has it, though?

Battle of Solon - 1 of 2 RMN late-gen SD(P)s survived Moriarty and Giscard's trap(outnumbered 6 to 1 on enemy ground)
Battle of Zanzibar - RMN's first-generation SD(P)s engaged a RHN force three times its size - which had to pull back and reammunition before wiping out RMN ships with empty magazines
Battle of Lovat - No RMN casualties
Battle of Manticore - Outnumbered 6 to 1 in podlayers for the first phase, with much of the RMN's first-generation SD(P)s and obsolete SDs present and surprised by the Donkey.
Battle of Manticore 2 - 2,000 casualties, no ships lost.

Had Home Fleet's SD(P)s all been replaced with Invictuses or at least refitted with Keyhole 2, Second Fleet would not have succeeded. That was the whole point of Theisman's gamble - to end the war before that happened and victory became impossible.

The RMN managed to get well over a hundred of those Invictuses commissioned after first Manticore. I don't think they're too worried about lack of counter-missiles at the moment!

In their fleet exercise before Filareta's attack, Honor and her team were already tweaking her fleet's formation to help counter the increase in the number of missiles that are being thrown by fleets in combat.
If Honor Harrington is already thinking that the size of the missile salvos are starting to creep towards something that current tactics can handle, I am going to choose to agree with her.

Rakhmamort wrote:

Annachie wrote:One question.
What type of defensive pofs are we talking here?

System defense pods to take on ships?

CM defense pods for fleet action?

CM defense pods for system defence?

Because I could see a use for that last one in a larger/important system.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

None of the above.

The defensive pod is a drone that launches dazzlers to blind incoming missiles and then puts itself as a very inviting target for the missiles that are suddenly looking for a viable target during the end phase of their attack run.

There is a need for this pod because:

But there ISN'T a need for this pod, because warships already fire use EW in the same range as CMs and PDLC's already. I posted the specific quote in page 1 of this thread earlier, but the RMN at least DOES fire Dazzlers in point blank snapshots in efforts to blind incoming missiles in addition to tethered and free-flying Ghost Rider decoys, plus Keyholes with their high amounts of point defense adding to the ships own.

You can't truly blind missiles that are still connected to the launch ship/platform, because it's not really the missile that's watching, so the only time Dazzler (and less navies versions of it) can possibly work is after you've cut control links to that salvo's missiles.

At All Costs, Battle of Solon wrote:The five LAC wings, arranged "above" and "below" the heavier ships and fifty thousand kilometers closer to Arthur, belched an answering hurricane. Vipers and standard counter-missiles began to launch from the LACs as Mark 31s roared away from the starships, and incoming missiles began to vanish.

Brankovski had five hundred and sixty LACs, one for every thirty attack missiles, and they punched a steady stream of counter-missiles into their teeth. Tethered and free-flying Ghost Rider decoys sang to the Republican MDMs' sensors. Dazzlers were launched into their faces, exploding in bursts of blinding interference. And Imperator and her consorts punched out wave after wave of Mark 31s.

The RMN is the ONLY navy, ANYWHERE, that has Dazzler's because they're also the only navy that puts full up fusion cores in their missiles. Every single other navy, upto and I think actually including the RHN, were still firing capacitor powered missiles. The RHN didn't advance past capacitors until Erewhon signed over, and they didn't immediately jump up, they had to build the tools, to build the tools, to build what Manticore does. It took until approximately the Battle of Lovat, where we saw Cimeterre Beta's with full up lasers and fission piles, that we can safely assume the RHN probably started firing fusion missiles, but we don't have actual confirmation on that.

When the Dazzlers were first introduced, there was a passage that it was specifically because of their fusion cores they could bring their unprecedented jamming power to bear. Which was also the main perk of their sister missile, the Dragon's Teeth, which could also throw out decoy missiles of unprecedented strength because they effectively had unlimited power compared to the capacitors.

All that's not to say that even the SLN can't fire a jamming EW missile at point blank ranges for point defense purposes, but without the fusion power of the Dazzler, it's highly unlikely to reduce sensors by very much if at all.


[Yes, Grayson is technically an independent Navy that's an ally of the RMN, but when it boils down to it Grayson and Manticore are considered by Haven, Andermani, and Solarian alike to basically be one navy.

And yes, by the time of the Grand Alliance, the RHN and IAN both now have Dazzler missile technology, but it's still primarily considered a Manticoran missile rather than an Alliance missile]

Somtaaw wrote:
But there ISN'T a need for this pod, because warships already fire use EW in the same range as CMs and PDLC's already. I posted the specific quote in page 1 of this thread earlier, but the RMN at least DOES fire Dazzlers in point blank snapshots in efforts to blind incoming missiles in addition to tethered and free-flying Ghost Rider decoys, plus Keyholes with their high amounts of point defense adding to the ships own.

There probably is no pressing need for BCs and above that have the space to stow a lot of EW drones. For smaller ships that do not have the space, being able to bring along more and better drones is going to be important. Especially now that the smaller combatants have been spread out very thinly all over the place.

And you are wrong in assuming that this pod will only be used in "the same range where they use EW/CMs/PDCs". With pods capable of independent maneuvering, you can send these drones a couple of million kms downrange. Whittling down the incoming salvos so it has thinned out way before the range where the CMs have to be launched.

You can't truly blind missiles that are still connected to the launch ship/platform, because it's not really the missile that's watching, so the only time Dazzler (and less navies versions of it) can possibly work is after you've cut control links to that salvo's missiles.

As I've pointed out in one of my posts. Part of the doctrine would probably include synchronized dazzler bursts from the defensive pods and the force's offensive salvos. If the offensive salvo's Dazzlers can blank out the enemy ships' sensors, confuse them with the accompanying Dragons Teeth, then I'm quite sure that whatever sensors they are using to track the enemy far far away would also be affected. If the Dazzlers from the defensive pods capitalizes on that window where the enemy ships's control links are sending trash, it would certainly make the incoming missiles seeking and tracking capabilities a whole lot more stupid and dumb.

At All Costs, Battle of Solon wrote:The five LAC wings, arranged "above" and "below" the heavier ships and fifty thousand kilometers closer to Arthur, belched an answering hurricane. Vipers and standard counter-missiles began to launch from the LACs as Mark 31s roared away from the starships, and incoming missiles began to vanish.

Brankovski had five hundred and sixty LACs, one for every thirty attack missiles, and they punched a steady stream of counter-missiles into their teeth. Tethered and free-flying Ghost Rider decoys sang to the Republican MDMs' sensors. Dazzlers were launched into their faces, exploding in bursts of blinding interference. And Imperator and her consorts punched out wave after wave of Mark 31s.

The RMN is the ONLY navy, ANYWHERE, that has Dazzler's because they're also the only navy that puts full up fusion cores in their missiles. Every single other navy, upto and I think actually including the RHN, were still firing capacitor powered missiles. The RHN didn't advance past capacitors until Erewhon signed over, and they didn't immediately jump up, they had to build the tools, to build the tools, to build what Manticore does. It took until approximately the Battle of Lovat, where we saw Cimeterre Beta's with full up lasers and fission piles, that we can safely assume the RHN probably started firing fusion missiles, but we don't have actual confirmation on that.

When the Dazzlers were first introduced, there was a passage that it was specifically because of their fusion cores they could bring their unprecedented jamming power to bear. Which was also the main perk of their sister missile, the Dragon's Teeth, which could also throw out decoy missiles of unprecedented strength because they effectively had unlimited power compared to the capacitors.

All that's not to say that even the SLN can't fire a jamming EW missile at point blank ranges for point defense purposes, but without the fusion power of the Dazzler, it's highly unlikely to reduce sensors by very much if at all.


[Yes, Grayson is technically an independent Navy that's an ally of the RMN, but when it boils down to it Grayson and Manticore are considered by Haven, Andermani, and Solarian alike to basically be one navy.

And yes, by the time of the Grand Alliance, the RHN and IAN both now have Dazzler missile technology, but it's still primarily considered a Manticoran missile rather than an Alliance missile]

This defensive pod is supposed to be for the GA which the RMN is a part of. I don't see the relevance of this lecture about RMN being the only one who has Dazzlers.

Somtaaw wrote:The RMN is the ONLY navy, ANYWHERE, that has Dazzler's because they're also the only navy that puts full up fusion cores in their missiles. Every single other navy, upto and I think actually including the RHN, were still firing capacitor powered missiles. The RHN didn't advance past capacitors until Erewhon signed over, and they didn't immediately jump up, they had to build the tools, to build the tools, to build what Manticore does. It took until approximately the Battle of Lovat, where we saw Cimeterre Beta's with full up lasers and fission piles, that we can safely assume the RHN probably started firing fusion missiles, but we don't have actual confirmation on that.

When the Dazzlers were first introduced, there was a passage that it was specifically because of their fusion cores they could bring their unprecedented jamming power to bear. Which was also the main perk of their sister missile, the Dragon's Teeth, which could also throw out decoy missiles of unprecedented strength because they effectively had unlimited power compared to the capacitors.

All that's not to say that even the SLN can't fire a jamming EW missile at point blank ranges for point defense purposes, but without the fusion power of the Dazzler, it's highly unlikely to reduce sensors by very much if at all.

You're basically right, but Manticore does have a less effective "burst" version of the Dazzler warhead for their capacitor powered LAC missiles. Ferrets fire them when acting in the support role for s Shrike strike.

Rakhmamort wrote:I understand your points. As I said, doctrine on its use will still be developed. But considering that these are defensive pods, mobile defensive pods which have been engineered to have high endurance, the ship can simply dump them the moment the enemy is detected and let them position themselves and keep station from the start.

Which works unless the enemy is detected when they attack from ambush. Then you would have your pod rails jammed with defensive pods; which in one respect is nice since you'll spend the first minute or two adding to you defense. But it also means the enemy is free to continue fire at you undistracted.

Rakhmamort wrote:I don't feel that you are shooting down the idea. I'm actually happy somebody is really talking about the concept/design problems instead of going off in every direction.
As for choosing defense pods over ship killer pods, that, honestly is on the tactical commander's lap. However, I chose the pod (half-pod) lay-out so non-pod-layers can also use them.
Smaller ships that only has a couple of ECM drones in their inventory can supplement them with a couple of half-pods that are tractored/limpeted/towed.

There do seem to be limits to the strategic endurance of externally towing pods. I'm fairly sure that individual warships weren't towing the original pods for weeks through hyper. (And we've been told that the new Mantie pods with integral tractors have fairly limited tractor lendurance. Maybe a day or two. The external towing appears to be a tactical capability; not a strategic one. It wasn't shown onscreen but the implication of what RFC has later said about tow endurance implies that offensive attack with towed pods must have done something like haul the pods almost to the enemies doorstep in freighters of the fleet train then dump them where the warships could tow them a last short hop through hyper to the target.

So due to that it seem smaller ships couple expect to always have a towed supply of you defensive drone-pods available. They'd only have it when defending a friendly system (where the drone-pods could have been freighted in) or making a heavy prepared attack with fleet train (or podlayer) support.

the SLN needs some form of burst sensor degrading defensive missile, far more than the Grand Alliance though.

Defensively, the Grand Alliance has:
-tethered Ghost Rider decoys, tremendously effective
-free flying Ghost Rider decoys, that may have just been completely replaced by Lorelei's.... so utterly powerful they're basically unmanned ships rather than [i]mere]i] decoys anymore
-Dazzlers fired in the defensive role
-Keyhole's I and II, crammed with so much point defense they're essentially permanent light cruisers assigned to every capital ship
-various LAC designs that have more anti-missile capability than virtually anything smaller than Alliance light cruisers, which themselves are the size of SLN heavy cruisers.

The Grand Alliance quite literally, is already so ridiculously ahead of the curve, that they don't need pod launched Dazzlers for the defense purpose, until everybody else gets podlayers, MDMs, and probably even FTL fire control. By which time, the GA will have unveiled some next-gen EW, that even advanced Ghost Rider technology will look like toys.



But, the SLN, or the Rennaisance Factor/MAlign might have a need for this form of defense technology. And if they looked long enough and hard enough around sites of previous battles between RMN and various havenite regimes, the MAlign might just find a few intact Dazzler missiles to reverse-engineer.

Rakhmamort wrote:

You can't truly blind missiles that are still connected to the launch ship/platform, because it's not really the missile that's watching, so the only time Dazzler (and less navies versions of it) can possibly work is after you've cut control links to that salvo's missiles.

As I've pointed out in one of my posts. Part of the doctrine would probably include synchronized dazzler bursts from the defensive pods and the force's offensive salvos. If the offensive salvo's Dazzlers can blank out the enemy ships' sensors, confuse them with the accompanying Dragons Teeth, then I'm quite sure that whatever sensors they are using to track the enemy far far away would also be affected. If the Dazzlers from the defensive pods capitalizes on that window where the enemy ships's control links are sending trash, it would certainly make the incoming missiles seeking and tracking capabilities a whole lot more stupid and dumb.

But they already do the synchronized Dazzlers in both offensive and defensive roles. By the time my shipkillers + EW are reaching attack range of you, your shipkillers + EW are generally approaching me (and you've probably cut control links). So at the same time my Dazzlers are jamming you, I'm also going to be kicking Dazzlers out to blind your self-guided missiles, except you've cut control links so the fact my Dazzlers are blinding your ship doesn't matter to your missiles.

Synchronized jamming is almost totally irrelevant at MDM ranges, because without Apollo FTL links, a missile that's reaching attack range is almost always going to have its control link cut because the launching ship can no longer give it commands before it detonates on its own. Haven cut its control links to missiles even earlier than the RMN, but the RHN usually also rotated control links to fire larger salvos than they can actually control to make up for differential in EW, and hit ratios. The RMN only fires salvo's it can actually control, and cuts links at the last moment (before the missiles are too far to even bother sending updates too), to maximize performance.