Last use for SL SD captured

MuonNeutrino wrote:It's certainly true that distributing the tech isn't the same as handing out manufacturing techniques. But in a lot of cases, you don't need to duplicate the exact tech - the *ideas* are what's important.

The ideas are already out there and will become more widespread as Manticore moves into the League proper. Examples of Manticoran tech might speed up duplication but they are NOT necessary.

Examples of Manticoran tech can be found all over the "Haven Sector" and I'm sure there's an Andermani or Havenite, or Beowulfan, or in the Talbot Quadrant willing to sell a few secrets to the League or someone they think is from the League.

Manticore isn't going to significantly increase the risk of their military tech being copied by setting up system defense installations or selling LAC squadrons. Especially where they maintain control of the spares and repair facilities -- or set up any of a hundred different levels of security and/or reduced capabilities to protect their secrets. Insofar as the secrets can be kept, that is.

In the meantime, distributing "haven sector tech" level system defenses makes it probable that anyone who does copy "haven sector tech" is facing parity rather than having an irresistible tech advantage.

Manticore and Haven have a lot of experience with missile swarms and FTL recon drones and ghost rider's many tricks and tidbits -- none of which I'm advocating be distributed in front-line versions -- so they aren't particularly worried about facing forces with near-parity. They are going to face someone with advanced tech sooner or later, and having a lot of mutual defense partners (with at least Manticore Lite) is going to to go a long way towards offsetting any potential disadvantage.

MuonNeutrino wrote: That general principle applies elsewhere too; things like fission piles aren't an impossibility for the rest of humanity to build (albeit certainly not a *familiar* thing), it's just that nobody but those insane neobarbs would ever even have thought of the idea of using them in the first place. Or bow walls - those are literally no different from sidewalls, it just requires enough out of the box thinking to realize you could do that.

Incidentally there's a passage in SoS that indicates there's a bit more engineering to figure out even after you get the idea to close off the bow or stern of the wedge. When Hexapuma was confronting the old Mars-class they mentioned that adding a bow wall to her would have required rebuilding the impeller rooms. So there must be a design tweak to the wedge to make it compatible with being closed off.
The intro to bow wall, with the Shrikes, glossed over that tidbit. And the Shrike-Bs were probably so easy to field mod for a matching stern wall because all their impellers (their Beta squared nodes) were designed for compatibility.

Still it doesn't sound like a particularly tricky bit of engineering once you have the idea to add s bow and/or stern wall. (Now a buckler wall might have been a less obvious bit of engineering, but the basic one probably wasn't.)

Let's keep in mind that Manticore only allowed down-graded tech to be built into Torch's Frigates. Granted, this was while they were still at war with Haven and both polities were protecting Torch, but still. A system run by Zilwicki's daughter with the queen's niece as an integral figure only rated a scaled back 'export' version of their front-line tech. And that, frankly, is all I can see Manticore passing on to non-allies.

They will probably supply longer ranged SDM, more effective inertial compensators (say, Buttercup era), and possibly a few other goodies. I could see Manticore (once the yards are back up), re-fitting captured Solly SDs with improved fire control (more links and better), and the ability to launch longer SDMs/better anti-missile defenses and then selling them (at cost) to freed former Solly worlds. As stated before, a division or two of those refit and packed with missile pods would go a long way in keeping pirates and curious neighbors at bay.

The long and short of it is, however, that until the SLN shows they know the basics of a tech (e.g., they produce a legitimate DDM or FTL com), the Manties are not going to release their version of it to anyone who isn't signed up and trusted 100%. I could see Maya getting some upgrades once they declare - especially if its down via Erewhon as a way to tie that entire region into the GA (e.g., some GA battle squadrons and scouts head out there as support along with tech transfers). But that's about it for now.

Erls wrote:Let's keep in mind that Manticore only allowed down-graded tech to be built into Torch's Frigates. Granted, this was while they were still at war with Haven and both polities were protecting Torch, but still. A system run by Zilwicki's daughter with the queen's niece as an integral figure only rated a scaled back 'export' version of their front-line tech. And that, frankly, is all I can see Manticore passing on to non-allies.

I thought I was being very clear in linking distribution of Manticoran tech to mutual defense partners -- aka Allies. I can't see them selling or giving anything except FTL Comm to anyone not willing to sign a mutual defense treaty. FTL Comm is a special case because it has ramifications far beyond simple military applications: Manticore could ask for a planet's ransom for a constellation of Hermes Buoys. All without revealing anything about the micro-miniaturized version in drones or Apollo.

Weird Harold wrote:
Given Manticore's demonstrated policy, yes. Of course, spreading the technology to most of the former league members means that the MA won't gain any real advantage by learning the basic technologies, they'll just have parity with everyone else.

There's also the textev that Darius' industry is very much less efficient than Manticore's. (and from the description, just about any "free market" industry.) Almost any core world is going to be producing LACs and Missiles for their SDF far faster than the MA will be adapting stolen tech to their own systems.

Finally, sharing technology with mutual defense partners is NOT a "war winning strategy" it is a "Peace-keeping strategy." The war with the SLN, for sure, and the war with the MAlign are going to be over before significant amounts of super-secret technology gets distributed outside of the control of Manticoran/GA cadre or trainers.

The GA is fighting against the largest nation in history. The League's total population is many times that of the combined population of the GA and its industry is many times greater as well. Giving the SLN technology to build technologically equal or even slightly inferior ships means that the GA would be prolonging the war if not sabotaging their chances. And this does not consider the unknown strength that is the MA.


As for Darius being less efficient... so what? Efficiency is not the be all end all when it comes to ship building, we don't know the extend of the yards and industry. Manticore had about 3 billion people in the SKM with only a small fraction of the population involved in shipbuilding but we don't know anything about Darius other than it has similar population to Manticore but what we don't know is what percentage of the population is involved in shipbuilding. If Darius has 4 or 5 times the shipyards that Manticore had before OB efficiency would play a smaller role overall.

Weird Harold wrote:

Erls wrote:Let's keep in mind that Manticore only allowed down-graded tech to be built into Torch's Frigates. Granted, this was while they were still at war with Haven and both polities were protecting Torch, but still. A system run by Zilwicki's daughter with the queen's niece as an integral figure only rated a scaled back 'export' version of their front-line tech. And that, frankly, is all I can see Manticore passing on to non-allies.

I thought I was being very clear in linking distribution of Manticoran tech to mutual defense partners -- aka Allies. I can't see them selling or giving anything except FTL Comm to anyone not willing to sign a mutual defense treaty. FTL Comm is a special case because it has ramifications far beyond simple military applications: Manticore could ask for a planet's ransom for a constellation of Hermes Buoys. All without revealing anything about the micro-miniaturized version in drones or Apollo.

What would those allies provide the GA? If most of the League member systems don't have an SDF larger than a handful of LAC's or DD's/CL's what do you accomplish by providing them with top notch technology when they don't have the infrastructure, logistics or trained manpower to operate that equipment properly? The GA should focus on giving systems that leave the League te ability to protect themselves from the SLN, not to give them parity with the GA until and unless it is proven that those systems are needed. Allies should be a proven and known quality or a necessity and at this point surrendering their great technological advantage in favour of gaining "allies" which don't have a military to speak of seems a little silly.

Sigs wrote:The GA is fighting against the largest nation in history. The League's total population is many times that of the combined population of the GA and its industry is many times greater as well. Giving the SLN technology to build technologically equal or even slightly inferior ships means that the GA would be prolonging the war if not sabotaging their chances. And this does not consider the unknown strength that is the MA.

I don't expect the GA to give tech to the SLN. I expect them to give tech to allies against the SL/SLN. Specifically, to former members of the league willing to sign mutual defense treaties with the GA.

As you so rightly note, the League is the largest nation in history -- ignoring for the moment that the Solarian League is NOT a nation -- and every ally the GA can enlist in mutual defense against the League and League Navy has to be considered a plus. In order to gain the trust and assistance of former league members, it is necessary to demonstrate some degree of trust in them.

Sigs wrote:As for Darius being less efficient... so what? Efficiency is not the be all end all when it comes to ship building, we don't know the extend of the yards and industry. ...

We know from textev that Albrecht Detweiler laments the lack of efficiency that is slowing completion of the Leonard Detweiler class of ships. No specific timetable is given but several years remaining to completion is implied.

The League doesn't have several years so the war with the League will be over before the MAlign is ready for overt military conflict. Add a few years to reverse engineer stolen "Haven Quadrant Tech" and it will be a decade or so before stolen tech reaches a MAlign/Manticore battle. (That's longer than the six years RFC reportedly projects for the League to bring similar tech online -- which the League won't because it will disintegrate first.)

You also seem to be missing the point that the tech is already widespread enough that the MAlign should have (or should soon have) samples of everything but the manufacturing processes. The GA/Manticore wouldn't be significantly increasing the exposure of the technology -- especially if they don't distribute the manufacturing processes.

Sigs wrote:What would those allies provide the GA? ...

A smaller League.

An additional point requiring the attention of the League/SLN.

Financial, intelligence, diplomatic "muscle," and a host of other non-military benefits.

Sigs wrote:The GA should focus on giving systems that leave the League te ability to protect themselves from the SLN, not to give them parity with the GA until and unless it is proven that those systems are needed.

Giving mutual defense partners system defense missiles with control modules and advanced LAC squadrons IS giving them the ability to protect themselves from the SLN. It is NOT giving them "parity with the GA."

There is a great deal covered by "ghost rider" that wouldn't be included in system defense missile installations or LAC squadrons. The system defense missiles need not include Dragon's Teeth or Dazzlers, and no ship's systems or pod-naught designs would not be included.

The basic elements of about 90% of "Haven Quadrant Tech" would be present, but not the manufacturing processes or ship designs. Even Manticore needs a year or two to design a new ship (ref: the explanation of, "why not build DN(P)s?") Former League members without ship design experience would take longer to put all the pieces together to build an SD(P) or CLAC.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:As for Darius being less efficient... so what? Efficiency is not the be all end all when it comes to ship building, we don't know the extend of the yards and industry. ...

We know from textev that Albrecht Detweiler laments the lack of efficiency that is slowing completion of the Leonard Detweiler class of ships. No specific timetable is given but several years remaining to completion is implied.

Uh, from what I remember, the Darius builders were considered good. Just not quite as good as Manticore, which isn't the same thing as being crap. I'd love to be a sprinter not quite as good as Usain Bolt!

No lower comparision was made. My interpretation was they could be the fourth or fifth most efficient builders around - behind Manticore and its allies, but perhaps ahead of Haven.

Sigs wrote:As for Darius being less efficient... so what? Efficiency is not the be all end all when it comes to ship building, we don't know the extend of the yards and industry. ...

Weird Harold wrote:
We know from textev that Albrecht Detweiler laments the lack of efficiency that is slowing completion of the Leonard Detweiler class of ships. No specific timetable is given but several years remaining to completion is implied.

munroburton wrote:
Uh, from what I remember, the Darius builders were considered good. Just not quite as good as Manticore, which isn't the same thing as being crap. I'd love to be a sprinter not quite as good as Usain Bolt!

No lower comparision was made. My interpretation was they could be the fourth or fifth most efficient builders around - behind Manticore and its allies, but perhaps ahead of Haven.

IIRC, the implication was that Darius was better than nearly anywhere else, including much of the Solarian League, but that Manticore was better still, and arguably the best anywhere in known space, and that good for a variety of reasons, a number of which were things that Darius could not implement under the MAlign.