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Last use for SL SD captured

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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Sigs   » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:36 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
It certainly looks to me that the Harrington Doctrine advocates mutual defense pacts and allies rather than "just friends."

If nothing else, I would expect a thriving arms trade in Apollo system defense installations with Mycroft command modules and LAC squadrons. That is 90% of Manticore's tech advantage spread through human space.

In other words donate the technological advantage of the GA to the MA... right?

Instead of the MA/RF expending time and resources to discover the technologies the GA possesses, the GA would essentially donate it. I don't think that's how you win wars.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:47 am

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I'm guessing that if the SD's are given to Meyers, the one thing they will upgrade on these ships is the fire control. It won't be a speedy thing, but easier to install KH-II and the control links than anything else, then essentially cover the 'fide things in pods, both DDM and MDM variants, racked. Put someone like Adm. Bachfish in as station commander and...

With KH-II, Foraker's donkey system and rotate-able links, one ex-SL SD would still be able to pack a hell of a punch all by itself, in a squadron of say 4, system defense LACS plus an ammo ship, ain't nobody else gonna crash the party easily if at all.

4-5 years later Meyers force is trained up and self-sustaining and the sector secured by homebuilt / homebased cruisers along the RMN's "tier 2 line". Then retire the SD's for better ships.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:53 am

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Sigs wrote:In other words donate the technological advantage of the GA to the MA... right?

Instead of the MA/RF expending time and resources to discover the technologies the GA possesses, the GA would essentially donate it. I don't think that's how you win wars.


Given Manticore's demonstrated policy, yes. Of course, spreading the technology to most of the former league members means that the MA won't gain any real advantage by learning the basic technologies, they'll just have parity with everyone else.

There's also the textev that Darius' industry is very much less efficient than Manticore's. (and from the description, just about any "free market" industry.) Almost any core world is going to be producing LACs and Missiles for their SDF far faster than the MA will be adapting stolen tech to their own systems.

Finally, sharing technology with mutual defense partners is NOT a "war winning strategy" it is a "Peace-keeping strategy." The war with the SLN, for sure, and the war with the MAlign are going to be over before significant amounts of super-secret technology gets distributed outside of the control of Manticoran/GA cadre or trainers.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:19 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Sigs wrote:In other words donate the technological advantage of the GA to the MA... right?

Instead of the MA/RF expending time and resources to discover the technologies the GA possesses, the GA would essentially donate it. I don't think that's how you win wars.


Given Manticore's demonstrated policy, yes. Of course, spreading the technology to most of the former league members means that the MA won't gain any real advantage by learning the basic technologies, they'll just have parity with everyone else.

There's also the textev that Darius' industry is very much less efficient than Manticore's. (and from the description, just about any "free market" industry.) Almost any core world is going to be producing LACs and Missiles for their SDF far faster than the MA will be adapting stolen tech to their own systems.

Finally, sharing technology with mutual defense partners is NOT a "war winning strategy" it is a "Peace-keeping strategy." The war with the SLN, for sure, and the war with the MAlign are going to be over before significant amounts of super-secret technology gets distributed outside of the control of Manticoran/GA cadre or trainers.
Im less convinced Manticore will be willing to spread their first rate gear around. It seems to me that they tend to do so when it significantly contributes to their survival, and are much less open handed when it doesn't.
During the first war they shared tech with Allies who could benifit from it, but it appears the yards in Allison and Zanzibar probably never got the SD specific tech upgrades, and may not have gotten the advanced LAC tech. Erewhon wasn't willing, then, to build a yard capably of building SDs and they definitely got left out of the loop on all the goodies unleashed during buttercup (advanced LACs, CLACS, MDMs, and Podlayers. They did get the ERM tech which let them build the CAs they could build with weapons comparable with the contemperanious Sag-Bs. Talbot system also never got the Ghost Rider tech package, and they had a yard capable of refitting, or building, SDs. And that was while under the Cromarty government so you can't really argue that restricting tech was an aberration of the Janeseck government.
Grayson got everything until access was resricted during the ceasefire, but they were also the only ally building serious numbers of wallers and were even then the second most powerful member of the alliance. Refusing to share the tech (some of which they were involved in developing) would have seriously weakened their military strength and hurt Manticore's ability to win the war.

Then obviously during the ceasefire Janasek took that further and cut off all tech sharing; even with Grayson.

And post ceasefire they resumed sharing with Grayson, and started sharing with the Andies because they needed those navy's ships as capable as possible to survive after the disaster of Thinderbolt.

Similarly they started Sharing with Haven after they signed al alliance in the wake of the devastating Oyster Bay attack and the knowledge of the impending Raging Justice; Haven was important to surviving the war with the League. And while Haven's ships funny need Msntie tech to decisively outclass SLN units, Manticore wanted their shipbuilding to help in the interval until Msnticore's own yards could be rebuilt. So again a compelling reason to share the tech.

I don't see the ex-League worlds shipbuilding as being very important yo Manticore in the short to mecium term, so there seems no survival necessity to share their best tech. Nor do I see those words as being se trustworthy as to be good risks to give the designs to. So I don't think !anticire has been as open handed in the past as people assume, nor do I see them likely to be more openhanded in the future.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:03 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:I don't see the ex-League worlds shipbuilding as being very important to Manticore in the short to medium term, so there seems no survival necessity to share their best tech. Nor do I see those words as being so trustworthy as to be good risks to give the designs to. So I don't think Manticore has been as open handed in the past as people assume, nor do I see them likely to be more openhanded in the future.


I don't see Manticore passing out all of their military tech. I do see them doing a thriving business in "system defense packages" -- MDM missile pods, Keyhole derived command modules of either Moriarity or Mycroft style. (FTL comm or not)

LAC squadrons and semi-fixed bases (Forts, not CLACs for the most part.)

FTL comm nodes and sensor arrays.

Every installation unique and tailored to reliability and "friendship" assessments and "ability to pay vs need."

I don't see Manticore issuing blanket upgrades to manufacturing and/or plans for spares, missiles, or ships. I don't see them giving away the tricks of automation or miniaturization, but the mere fact Manticore has such is going to inspire inventors, engineers and scientists to duplicate what Manticore doesn't share.

On a "what's in it for Manticore" level, I would expect a mutual defense treaty of some sort would be a prerequisite for sharing military tech. I would expect Manticore to share enough tech with each mutual defense partner to ensure that there would be enough survivors of an attack for a Manticoran response force to rescue -- i.e. each partner needs enough tech to contribute to their own defense and/or respond to a Manticoran call for help.

If Mutual Defense partners can defend themselves, Manticore won't have to expend "blood and gold" to defend them -- and there are going to be a LOT of mutual defense pacts made in the aftermath of the League's demise. Not all of those mutual defense pacts will be with Manticore or even the GA or GA members.

Maya, for example, seems to be focused on an alliance with Erewhon and Torch and only "neutrality in favor of" Haven and Manticore. Erewhon has made a good start at being an arms merchant selling "Manticore Lite" tech.

Many of the possible "Big Brothers" already have Manticoran tech including Apollo and Keyhole II. Others (Beowulf) are getting Mycroft and Apollo, which is the key to Manticoran superiority.

Manticore/GA aren't losing much by spreading/selling that level of system defense liberally. If they do, they aren't holding much beyond the manufacturing back.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by kzt   » Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:07 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:I'm guessing that if the SD's are given to Meyers, the one thing they will upgrade on these ships is the fire control. It won't be a speedy thing, but easier to install KH-II and the control links than anything else, then essentially cover the 'fide things in pods, both DDM and MDM variants, racked. Put someone like Adm. Bachfish in as station commander and...

Not going to happen. It's not simple, it's not easy and it's not cheap.

So first you need to cut a slot big enough to hold a modern destroyer in both sides of the SD. That means cutting and reforming the main armor belt. Does Meyers have a SD capable shipyard? If not, game over.

Then you need to find somewhere to park 200,000+ roughly contiguous cubic meters of electronics, computers and crew for the tactical section that manages the KH-IIs. Given how heavily compartmented an SD is this will not be at all easy to do once you find a spot in the ship to position it.

So yeah, we are talking about largely disassembling the SDs to do this, then reassembling them. If you have the ability to do this scale work and support the SDs in operation you also have the ability to build new SDs. And it would be easier and cheaper to build new ones.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MuonNeutrino   » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:57 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:I don't see Manticore passing out all of their military tech. I do see them doing a thriving business in "system defense packages" -- MDM missile pods, Keyhole derived command modules of either Moriarity or Mycroft style. (FTL comm or not)

LAC squadrons and semi-fixed bases (Forts, not CLACs for the most part.)

FTL comm nodes and sensor arrays.


The problem is, that *is* practically all of their military tech. Perhaps not the latest and greatest bleeding edge stuff, but that package gives any recipient the 'base platform' for pretty much every area where the manties advantages lie.

MDMs give out the secret of the baffle, the fundamental advance that lets you build real MDMs rather than the bolt-together hack that the cataphract uses. It also likely gives out the micro-fusion tech and the oh-so-nasty EW tricks you can pull with that power, unless you deliberately only produce the obsolete buttercup-era capacitor MDMs, and either way it still contains the most important part.

Anything keyhole-derived provides an all-too-close look into some of the alliance's most current ideas about parasite platforms and fire control, even if you don't give them the FTL transceivers of the apollo-capable platforms (which would be insane).

LAC squadrons give away bow and stern walls, beta-squared nodes, and the fission plants, even if you don't give away vipers by giving them Katanas. (Also note that alliance LACs tend to have some of the best EW/stealth outfits in space.) Or you give them Cimterres instead, and end up with LACs that aren't actually good for much other than missile defense and fighting *other* LACs. (Note that the only Cimterres capable of more than that have fission plants.)

FTL comms give away, well, the secret of FTL comms. Remember, the sollies are still at the point of "we're not even sure yet if we're right about how to build these things, and even if we were they'd probably take up most of a superdreadnaught." The sollies have *years* and years of R&D ahead of them to produce anything that would be workable in the field. The MA probably isn't quite so far behind, though IIRC we don't have any word on their efforts. Either way, *any* FTL comm capable enough to be worth giving out would provide either party with an enormous leg up in developing their own.

And, of course, alliance sensors are the best in the galaxy; they're not something you really want to give to someone who might turn around and feed them to the MA.

Point is, any MA or sollie-aligned entity getting their hands on a "system defense package" like that would probably wet their pants in excitement at the decades you just shaved off their R&D programs for reproducing the alliance's warfighting tech base.

And, of course, all of this is contingent on the alliance feeling secure enough in its own military and industrial situation to be able to divert capacity to building all this stuff (plus possibly *developing* new versions of it, if they feel they can only give out downgraded 'export' grade hardware).

Ultimately I don't see the manties giving out *too* much, too fast. To people who actively sign on as military *allies* (as mentioned above), perhaps. But definitely not to everyone who just leaves the solarian league. IMO they'd be more likely to offer them the chance to pick up some ex-solly light warships on the cheap. Like new, only surrendered once, weapons never fired!
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:17 pm

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MuonNeutrino wrote:Point is, any MA or sollie-aligned entity getting their hands on a "system defense package" like that would probably wet their pants in excitement at the decades you just shaved off their R&D programs for reproducing the alliance's warfighting tech base.

And, of course, all of this is contingent on the alliance feeling secure enough in its own military and industrial situation to be able to divert capacity to building all this stuff (plus possibly *developing* new versions of it, if they feel they can only give out downgraded 'export' grade hardware).


Distributing the hardware isn't the same thing as distributing the tech to manufacture same. The hardware is already distributed in enough places of dubious reliability that it IS going to get into the hands of those who shouldn't have it, but the technology to manufacture miniaturized micro-fusion packages or Grayson-tech fusion piles isn't as widely distributed.

Samples of baffles, micro-fusion plants, improved grav-lensing, FTL comms small enough to work in an Apollo ACM require reverse engineering, which Manticore seems to be pretty good at preventing -- Haven never quite matched Manticore's tech completely despite extensive espionage and numerous dud missiles and abandoned drones as examples.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:04 pm

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kzt wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:I'm guessing that if the SD's are given to Meyers, the one thing they will upgrade on these ships is the fire control. It won't be a speedy thing, but easier to install KH-II and the control links than anything else, then essentially cover the 'fide things in pods, both DDM and MDM variants, racked. Put someone like Adm. Bachfish in as station commander and...

Not going to happen. It's not simple, it's not easy and it's not cheap.

So first you need to cut a slot big enough to hold a modern destroyer in both sides of the SD. That means cutting and reforming the main armor belt. Does Meyers have a SD capable shipyard? If not, game over.

Then you need to find somewhere to park 200,000+ roughly contiguous cubic meters of electronics, computers and crew for the tactical section that manages the KH-IIs. Given how heavily compartmented an SD is this will not be at all easy to do once you find a spot in the ship to position it.

So yeah, we are talking about largely disassembling the SDs to do this, then reassembling them. If you have the ability to do this scale work and support the SDs in operation you also have the ability to build new SDs. And it would be easier and cheaper to build new ones.
Not disagreeing, except that there's no Manticoran yards available. I'm thinking more about how the IAN SD's were being brought up to Eighth Fleet standards including Apollo, which I think [may be wrong] was being done in Andermani space and brought forward, or Grayson upgrading the SD's in FlagInExile -- without the compensator or missile changes. So this would be a "reduced set of both of those", that like you said... is not likely to happen.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MuonNeutrino   » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:12 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:Distributing the hardware isn't the same thing as distributing the tech to manufacture same. The hardware is already distributed in enough places of dubious reliability that it IS going to get into the hands of those who shouldn't have it, but the technology to manufacture miniaturized micro-fusion packages or Grayson-tech fusion piles isn't as widely distributed.

Samples of baffles, micro-fusion plants, improved grav-lensing, FTL comms small enough to work in an Apollo ACM require reverse engineering, which Manticore seems to be pretty good at preventing -- Haven never quite matched Manticore's tech completely despite extensive espionage and numerous dud missiles and abandoned drones as examples.


It's certainly true that distributing the tech isn't the same as handing out manufacturing techniques. But in a lot of cases, you don't need to duplicate the exact tech - the *ideas* are what's important.

For example, while I'm not aware of any canon statements about this one way or the other, I personally think Haven *must* have developed their MDMs based off captured manty samples. Manticore spent literally decades coming up with the idea of the baffle and getting it to work; as good as Shannon is, I don't see Haven independently figuring it out and bringing it to deployment in less than five years without having gotten at least the basic idea from the manties.

That general principle applies elsewhere too; things like fission piles aren't an impossibility for the rest of humanity to build (albeit certainly not a *familiar* thing), it's just that nobody but those insane neobarbs would ever even have thought of the idea of using them in the first place. Or bow walls - those are literally no different from sidewalls, it just requires enough out of the box thinking to realize you could do that.

And when everyone else's FTL com research is *that* far behind the manties', I have a hard time believing that having a working sample wouldn't help in *some* way. Again, you don't need to be able to duplicate the exact piece of equipment; just seeing what approaches the manties took to solve various problems can't help but point the way at least a bit.

Also, note that what kept Haven from duplicating a lot of the manties' stuff is that their base tech is so much lower - e.g. all the mentions of 'that damn manty miniaturization tech'. The basic tech levels of the sollies and MA, on the other hand, are a heck of a lot closer to the manties' - they may not have some of the specific tricks, but they're in a lot better position to try to duplicate them than Haven was. The other difference is that haven was (presumably) examining mostly expended or defective munitions/gear and/or wreckage - that's not quite the same as having fully functional examples, presumably complete with training manuals and spare parts.
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