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In Memorium - How are they remembered?

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In Memorium - How are they remembered?
Post by Valen123456   » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:24 pm

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We have had a lot of death and destruction of both good and bad people in the Honorverse over time. What I am wondering now is actually how are those characters now remembered in the series current present (Oct 1922 PD). People we have seen in the stories, people who have died fighting or just caught in a crossfire. How are they viewed for a historical perspective (provided they have been gone long enough for that to be relevant).

In particular interest are the three Haventies that triggered so much, lets start with them. Pierre, St Just, Ransom. How are they remembered and by who?
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Re: In Memorium - How are they remembered?
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:47 am

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Temporarily off vacation just through the 4th then off again. This forum has been busy!

In the case of Pierre, Saint-Just and Ransom, they'll be remembered with disgust for some time to come. Kind of difficult to forget them even though one may find the memory of them unpalatable to the engrams.

Politically, they'll serve as a convenient and pointed excuse for certain appendages and personages of the Havenite government and a warning of what to avoid. As the same with High Ridge and Janacek on the Manticoran side. Such as is made evident by this passage near the end of Ch. 11 in ART...
“There’s a limit to how long the Grantville Government can go on blaming High Ridge for its own current problems.” Mallory’s tone could have melted lead, but at least he’d paused long enough to be sure he had his temper on a tight leash. “No one’s trying to pretend mistakes weren’t made on High Ridge’s watch, although some of us continue to question the wisdom of sentencing an ex-prime minister to prison for the actions of his government. I know that’s not a popular position, but the precedent of criminalizing political opponents is likely to produce all kinds of ugly fallout down the road. And dragging out the ‘usual suspects’ to wave like some red herring whenever someone criticizes the current government’s policies is scarcely a reasoned response to the criticism, Mr. Alverson!”

“Really?” Madeleine Richter asked. “I was under the impression he was convicted of bribery, vote-buying, perjury, extortion, and obstruction of justice, not the actions of his government. Did I read the news accounts incorrectly. Kiefer?” She smiled brightly. “As for Jephthah’s point, while I’ll agree it’s not an extraordinarily polished response, in this instance it does have the virtue of cutting to the heart of the matter. And it’s not like your criticism was exactly nuanced and carefully thought out, either.”

Mallory’s flush darkened and Rosalinda Davidson shook her head. Richter, the sitting MP for East Tannerton, was a senior member of the Centrist Party. As such, her support of the Grantville Government was as much a given as Mallory’s opposition to it. Davidson, on the other hand, had been a Liberal Party MP until she got washed out of office in the post-High Ridge tsunami. Since then, she’d earned her living as a columnist and lecturer, and although she and Mallory weren’t exactly bosom buddies, they were united in their distaste for the current government.

“You know,” she said, a bit pointedly, “bashing people for past or present political affiliations isn’t the reason we’re here tonight, Madeline. Or I was under the impression it wasn’t, at any rate. Minerva?”

She turned to Minerva Prince, who with Patrick DuCain, co-hosted the awesomely popular and long-running Into the Fire. The syndicated show was only one of the flood of programs trying to cope with the bombshell revelation of Eloise Pritchart’s presence in the Manticore Binary System, but it had the highest viewership of them all.

“You’re right, of course, Rosalinda,” Prince replied. “On the other hand, you know Patrick and I usually let our guests have at least some voice in where the discussion goes.”

“That’s true enough,” Emily agreed, smiling more broadly at Honor. “All that blood in the water’s just what their ratings need!”

“I remember,” Honor said feelingly, recalling her own Into the Fire appearance, when she’d been beached by the Janacek Admiralty. “And they’re not above steering their guests’ ‘voices’ when the water isn’t sufficiently chummed, either.”

Those worth remembering I'm sure will be remembered fondly for a lifetime. Especially during the carefree retirement years when one reminisces and thought considers those whose promising careers were snuffed out all too soon as snotties, or close thereof.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: In Memorium - How are they remembered?
Post by munroburton   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:51 am

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I think once the emotional investment has gone or dwindled, Pierre may be viewed in a somewhat more favourable light.

There are two or three points to consider:
1) Pierre's son was lost due to Legislaturalist incompetence in starting a war. He then brought down that government which wasn't exactly popular.
2) When Pierre died, Saint-Just really showed Haven what a monster he was. Apologists could easily say that Pierre held Saint-Just in check.
3) The Pierre Reforms pretty much fixed the Legislaturists' economic mess and he had the farsightedness to establish Bolthole.

Ransom may fall somewhere in the middle. Yes, she was truly vile in private, but a lot of people liked her public persona or the messages she sent out.

Saint-Just, though, is the Beria of Haven. He filled the role of their regime's hate-and-fear figure. Won't really be remembered at all and if so, unfondly.

Back to Pierre, it really depends whether there is an organised vilification of him or not. Consider that Stalin, who killed quite a lot of people, is not quite the hate figure that Hitler still is... and https://www.rt.com/politics/328908-publ ... -improves/
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Re: In Memorium - How are they remembered?
Post by Dauntless   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:13 pm

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as pointed out above of the troika that ruled the CPS Pierre will likely come off best.

yes he caused a lot of death and misery and he never tried to rein in the more nutzoid members of the military, and he could have done something for that but he needed every dolist he could get in uniform and off the BLS.

On the plus side he did get people off the BLS and he got something close to a real economy working again, and he got rid of the leauglists who were stifling anything approaching competence let alone innovation if if it didn't come from them.

so I think he may end up be viewed like oliver cromwell. lots of good mixed with just as much bad.

Saint just? probably won't be forgotten soon, and despite the fact he never took pleasure in cruelty he will be remembered for a long time as the worst of the three.

Ransom? given how few realised just quite how physco she was she will likely receive the kindest treatment of all
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Re: In Memorium - How are they remembered?
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:43 pm

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Since it's Tom Theisman in charge of the whole navy now, Ransom's reputation is totally gone, because he knew exactly what a psychotic bitch she was because of how she handled Honor. And Theisman wouldn't have kept that quiet after he brought back the Constitution.

OSJ was the head of State-Sec, and all it's glorious excesses, so he was tarnished even before he became the only surviving Committee member and went totally crazy during the last days of Buttercup. So he's going to have gotten the worst rep of all

Even Pierre's not going to get out with a good reputation, simply because he was officially in charge of the CPS, so all the excesses Saint-Just and Ransom committed, he takes the blame because he was the head of the CPS. Sure he got the drones off the Dole, and gave the Havenite economy the first jumpstart in decades, but he was also responsible for everything bad. Just like High Ridge, Pierre got tarnished.


munroburton wrote:3) The Pierre Reforms pretty much fixed the Legislaturists' economic mess and he had the farsightedness to establish Bolthole.


One of the reports that Givens presented, tells us it was actually a Legislaturalist that started Bolthole, and Pierre simply took it and ran with the idea, funding it even more than the Legislaturalists did.
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Re: In Memorium - How are they remembered?
Post by munroburton   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:09 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Since it's Tom Theisman in charge of the whole navy now, Ransom's reputation is totally gone, because he knew exactly what a psychotic bitch she was because of how she handled Honor. And Theisman wouldn't have kept that quiet after he brought back the Constitution.

Theisman made every effort to remain apolitical. Plus, given the way he took Saint-Just out, I think he gave every impression of burying that period of Havenite history and then concreting over it.

Note: Vilification is not the same thing as repudiating the actions of that previous regime. Which itself vilified the Legislaturalists and Manticorans.

One of the reports that Givens presented, tells us it was actually a Legislaturalist that started Bolthole, and Pierre simply took it and ran with the idea, funding it even more than the Legislaturalists did.


RFC later confirmed this was erroneous thinking on Givens' part, who at the time was dealing with the fall-out of Jurgensen's tenure and facing the reality that, whether established under Pierre or Harris, Bolthole was built during her first watch. She had to consider every possibility.
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Re: In Memorium - How are they remembered?
Post by Senior Chief   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:41 pm

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Valen123456 wrote:We have had a lot of death and destruction of both good and bad people in the Honorverse over time. What I am wondering now is actually how are those characters now remembered in the series current present (Oct 1922 PD). People we have seen in the stories, people who have died fighting or just caught in a crossfire. How are they viewed for a historical perspective (provided they have been gone long enough for that to be relevant).

In particular interest are the three Haventies that triggered so much, lets start with them. Pierre, St Just, Ransom. How are they remembered and by who?



The bad people more than likely as a joke or a one-liner that people will understand as a warning to stay on the side of light.

The good people will be remembered with respect... but then again even good people end up as a joke... Who is buried in Grant's tomb? If you said Grant then you are wrong. If you said Grant and his wife Julia then you are wrong again. Neither are buried just entombed in the above ground mausoleum.
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Re: In Memorium - How are they remembered?
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:32 pm

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munroburton wrote:
One of the reports that Givens presented, tells us it was actually a Legislaturalist that started Bolthole, and Pierre simply took it and ran with the idea, funding it even more than the Legislaturalists did.


RFC later confirmed this was erroneous thinking on Givens' part, who at the time was dealing with the fall-out of Jurgensen's tenure and facing the reality that, whether established under Pierre or Harris, Bolthole was built during her first watch. She had to consider every possibility.



Really? I'd thought the clues tied it together fairly well that Bolthole was established prior to CPS. Could have sworn there were even Havenites that mentioned something about how "only good thing the Legislaturalists did, and the Committee continued" or something to that regard. I'll have to go quote diving again to try to find the reference.
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Re: In Memorium - How are they remembered?
Post by munroburton   » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:15 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Really? I'd thought the clues tied it together fairly well that Bolthole was established prior to CPS. Could have sworn there were even Havenites that mentioned something about how "only good thing the Legislaturalists did, and the Committee continued" or something to that regard. I'll have to go quote diving again to try to find the reference.


Really. RFC does allow his characters to be wrong sometimes. :)
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Re: In Memorium - How are they remembered?
Post by Kytheros   » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:35 pm

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munroburton wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Really? I'd thought the clues tied it together fairly well that Bolthole was established prior to CPS. Could have sworn there were even Havenites that mentioned something about how "only good thing the Legislaturalists did, and the Committee continued" or something to that regard. I'll have to go quote diving again to try to find the reference.


Really. RFC does allow his characters to be wrong sometimes. :)

I think the Bolthole being related to a Legislaturalist project thing might be connected to Parnell's debriefing. And labor drafts from Hades that went to no known/identified project and were never returned.

And if anybody would know the truth about Bolthole, it'd be Parnell.
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