Last use for SL SD captured

Rincewind wrote:But in that case would you really want to supply a bunch of ships that, even if they have been mothballed by the Manties would still have the upgraded compensators, FTL Comms & all those other little goodies to ex Solarian League Systems. I certainly would hesitate before doing that!

It amazes me that people ignore Manticore's history of providing "modern" tech to the navies of allies -- including training their officers at Saganami Island. Not all allies received top of the line military assistance, but both the IAN and RHN began receiving Keyhole II upgrades as soon as the treaties were signed. There is not a great deal of technology being held back when you're upgrading allied ships to Apollo capability.

Manticore has never worried over-much about supplying allied Navies with tech compatible with first-line Manticoran equipment, so it puzzles me why so many people think they should start now.

Louis R wrote:Do you want those systems to be ex or not?

The object of the exercise is _not_ to fill the galaxy with out-of-joint noses. It _is_ the intention to convert as many as possible into stable, self-sufficient [as much as any Honorverse system is, which appears to be approximately as much as nations on Earth now are truly self-sufficient] friends and allies. Which means, and I know this is a difficult concept for a lot of people, that _you_ become _their_ friend and ally. The last I checked, saying "You're totally untrustworthy. Keep your noses clean for the next 2-3 decades and we'll see about letting you further into the club." wasn't way up there on the list of "Demonstrations of Friendship".

And, quite frankly, it doesn't really matter all that much anyway, now. All those 'cats are out of their bags. Now that Haven has duplicated all this independently you're going to be seeing the tech move into the civilian sector pretty quickly.

Rincewind wrote:
But in that case would you really want to supply a bunch of ships that, even if they have been mothballed by the Manties would still have the upgraded compensators, FTL Comms & all those other little goodies to ex Solarian League Systems. I certainly would hesitate before doing that!

After 10th fleet captures mesa and make it manticores friend, do you propose giving mesa modern manti military hardware???

Manticore has a reputation of tech transfers to it's ALLIES.

Manticore DOES NOT have a reputation of tech transfers to it's friends, there is a difference.

Most of the worlds that the GA will capture would become their friends, not their allies, which would not rate modern tech transfers. Only a small percentage would rate alli status and tech transfers.

The whole point is to not be capturing anything.

And it's somewhat irrelevant whether you want to make friends and allies of everyone out there - I can pretty much guarantee that you won't, even knowing nothing about the unseen elements of the League - because the many you do want will still be the "ex Solarian League Systems" that people are trying to argue shouldn't be trusted with anything more advanced than flint and steel.

darrell wrote:

Louis R wrote:Do you want those systems to be ex or not?

The object of the exercise is _not_ to fill the galaxy with out-of-joint noses. It _is_ the intention to convert as many as possible into stable, self-sufficient [as much as any Honorverse system is, which appears to be approximately as much as nations on Earth now are truly self-sufficient] friends and allies. Which means, and I know this is a difficult concept for a lot of people, that _you_ become _their_ friend and ally. The last I checked, saying "You're totally untrustworthy. Keep your noses clean for the next 2-3 decades and we'll see about letting you further into the club." wasn't way up there on the list of "Demonstrations of Friendship".

And, quite frankly, it doesn't really matter all that much anyway, now. All those 'cats are out of their bags. Now that Haven has duplicated all this independently you're going to be seeing the tech move into the civilian sector pretty quickly.

darrell wrote:Most of the worlds that the GA will capture would become their friends, not their allies, which would not rate modern tech transfers. Only a small percentage would rate alli status and tech transfers.

"So if we get into an all-out war with the League, our strategy is going to have to have a very definite political element. We'll have to make it clear that the war wasn't our idea. We'll have to drive home the notion that we're not after any sort of punitive peace, that we're not trying to annex any additional territory, that we have no desire to conduct reprisals against people who don't want to fight us. We need to tell them, every step of the way, that what we really want is a negotiated settlement . . . and at the same time, we have to hit the League as a whole so hard that the fracture lines already there under the surface open right up. We have to split the League into separate sectors, into successor states, none of which have the sheer size and concentrated industrial power and manpower of the present league. Successor states that are our own size, or smaller. And we have to negotiate bilateral peace treaties with each of those successor states as they declare their willingness to opt out of the general conflict to get us to stop beating on their heads. And once we have those peace treaties, we have to not only honor them, but step beyond them. We need to use trade incentives, mutual defense pacts, educational assistance, every single thing we can think of to show them that we are—and to really be, not just pretend to be—the sort of neighbor and ally they'll want around. In other words, once we break the League militarily, once we splinter it into multiple, mutually independent star nations, we have to see to it that none of those star nations have any motive to fuse themselves back together and gang up on us all over again."

It certainly looks to me that the Harrington Doctrine advocates mutual defense pacts and allies rather than "just friends."

If nothing else, I would expect a thriving arms trade in Apollo system defense installations with Mycroft command modules and LAC squadrons. That is 90% of Manticore's tech advantage spread through human space.

--big snip--

Weird Harold wrote:

darrell wrote:Most of the worlds that the GA will capture would become their friends, not their allies, which would not rate modern tech transfers. Only a small percentage would rate alli status and tech transfers.

It certainly looks to me that the Harrington Doctrine advocates mutual defense pacts and allies rather than "just friends."

If nothing else, I would expect a thriving arms trade in Apollo system defense installations with Mycroft command modules and LAC squadrons. That is 90% of Manticore's tech advantage spread through human space.

Yes and no. The Star Kingdom has a reputation for wise choices in this area; they'd been involved in Silesia for centuries, but because of systemic corruption, they weren't passing out latest generation tech to every tin-pot dictator and corrupt warlord on the block. Then you look at the Talbott annexation, and the big deal was "how equally are the rights, responsibilities, and assistances applied, i.e., oligarchies need not apply". To get on the friends list, you have to be taking care of your own. To get on the allies list you have to sign up for the same fight.

darrell wrote:Most of the worlds that the GA will capture would become their friends, not their allies, which would not rate modern tech transfers. Only a small percentage would rate alli status and tech transfers.

SharkHunter wrote:--big snip--

Weird Harold wrote:
It certainly looks to me that the Harrington Doctrine advocates mutual defense pacts and allies rather than "just friends."

If nothing else, I would expect a thriving arms trade in Apollo system defense installations with Mycroft command modules and LAC squadrons. That is 90% of Manticore's tech advantage spread through human space.

Yes and no. The Star Kingdom has a reputation for wise choices in this area; they'd been involved in Silesia for centuries, but because of systemic corruption, they weren't passing out latest generation tech to every tin-pot dictator and corrupt warlord on the block. Then you look at the Talbott annexation, and the big deal was "how equally are the rights, responsibilities, and assistances applied, i.e., oligarchies need not apply". To get on the friends list, you have to be taking care of your own. To get on the allies list you have to sign up for the same fight.

I can't see them passing out the secrets to the micro fusion reactor or the baffle that makes MDM possible to anyone but a select few.

some of the other technology like better compensators and ship to ship FTL communications distribute more widespread, but not everything to everyone.

darrell wrote:I can't see them passing out the secrets to the micro fusion reactor or the baffle that makes MDM possible to anyone but a select few.

Too many people know these now and they are obviously enormously valuable to multiple organizations. And you can reasonably expect that any tech provided to Beowulf will end up in the hands of the MA. It's like giving secrets to the West Germans during the Cold War.

Maldorian wrote:There is absolutly NO use for the capzured solarian Superdreadnoughts!

First:
Manticore isn´t offical at war with the league. It would be a Problem, if you find a diplomatic way to solve the Problems with the league and the Superdreads are scrapped down, but the sollies want them back!

The only way that the GA and the League would end up at peace is if one of those entities is destroyed. Any other form of peace between the League or even a large portion of the League and the GA or any individual members of the GA just means that the GA or its members would buy themselves only a few years of peace before the League finds technological parity and comes back for revenge. With or without the MA the League cannot be allowed to survive in any form if the GA wants to have a chance at survival in the long term.

Maldorian wrote:Second:
Support! The manticorians don´t have the infrastructur to build sollie Equipment. They have better tec, so why producing crap? So, how will you drive the solly superdreads without Equipment?

Take the SD's that are still operational, if an SD is damaged and needs significant repair it would be written off.

Once a system leaves the League, the GA would transfer some SD's and smaller combatants to that system along with training cadre in order to help build up the System's navy.

The SD's provide a platform that allows the new nation to train its people and gain experience. This also allows them some say in their defence because they will have effective parity with SLN equipment. Once they have build up a proper navy they can start receiving modern warships from the GA, the time between creation of the Fleet and introduction of modern ships would allow the individual nations to establish local infrastructure to support their fleet.

Maldorian wrote:Third:
Crew! If manticor or someone else: a superdreadnought need a lot of People to run them. For Manticore it would be a wast of Crew and for all others it would be a big Problem to find enough People. Meyers for example don´t have an own navy. Command structures, Support structures and Money supply dont grow on tree´s.

For the smaller vessel´s there is some use, but the solly superdreads are only dead weight

For newly independent systems money would not be an issue since the core worlds would build as big a fleet as they can and as quickly as they can to ensure their survival while verge systems and protectorates would build as much fleet as they can afford because they wouldn't want to be easy prey to anyone who wants to make take Frontier Security's place.

Louis R wrote:Do you want those systems to be ex or not?

The object of the exercise is _not_ to fill the galaxy with out-of-joint noses. It _is_ the intention to convert as many as possible into stable, self-sufficient [as much as any Honorverse system is, which appears to be approximately as much as nations on Earth now are truly self-sufficient] friends and allies. Which means, and I know this is a difficult concept for a lot of people, that _you_ become _their_ friend and ally. The last I checked, saying "You're totally untrustworthy. Keep your noses clean for the next 2-3 decades and we'll see about letting you further into the club." wasn't way up there on the list of "Demonstrations of Friendship".

And, quite frankly, it doesn't really matter all that much anyway, now. All those 'cats are out of their bags. Now that Haven has duplicated all this independently you're going to be seeing the tech move into the civilian sector pretty quickly.

The GA's goal is to maintain their technological edge as long as possible and that means keeping it out of SLN and MA hands.

Look at the US, there are weapon systems that the US military is banned from exporting even to allies.

Giving your most advanced ships or even less advanced ships with a lot of technological secrets means that the 5 or 10 year supremacy of the GA evaporates once it becomes general knowledge. What's more, many of those former league members would lack the infrastructure, logistics and trained manpower to make full use of front line GA ships. Better to give them readily available ships which would allow them to build up their infrastructure, logistics and manpower with SLN ships that are equal to their enemy(SLN).

Weird Harold wrote:It amazes me that people ignore Manticore's history of providing "modern" tech to the navies of allies -- including training their officers at Saganami Island. Not all allies received top of the line military assistance, but both the IAN and RHN began receiving Keyhole II upgrades as soon as the treaties were signed. There is not a great deal of technology being held back when you're upgrading allied ships to Apollo capability.

Manticore has never worried over-much about supplying allied Navies with tech compatible with first-line Manticoran equipment, so it puzzles me why so many people think they should start now.

The GA does not know what the ultimate goal of the MA is nor do they know how the MA plans to achieve the goals they have. The GA may suspect some things and may have some theories but overall the potential to supply the MA with frontline GA technology might rank as a bad idea.

The RF has something like a dozen member systems with an unknown industrial capabilities but significant SDF's as well as at least one system that is the equivalent of Bolthole. Giving any member of the RF any GA technology not generally available means that the GA would have little to no intelligence on the MA and the MA would have a lot of intelligence on the GA as well as technological parity. They would lose their main advantage.