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Knife fighting with cm's

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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:12 pm

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Have to admit, part of my thinking is that cm's have a 10km wide wedge but I can't remember where it says that.
I was thinking a stream of probably unguided shots 1 after the other. Especially if you're risking exposing your kilt diring manouvers.

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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by MaxxQ   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:15 pm

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I had it in my head that a CM's wedge was 10 km

It's either a missile or CM that has a 10km wide wedge. Can't remember off-hand.


Missiles generally have a 10km x 10km wedge. CMs have wedges at least 50% larger (and more powerful than that of an attack missile) on a side.

Pinnace wedges are between 25 and 35km on a side. The heavy cruiser Fearless wedge is 150km on a side, and SD wedges are 300km on a side.

Wedges are as square as a projected field of energy/gravity can be in a fictional universe. No rectangles! :mrgreen:
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:27 pm

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MaxxQ wrote:
kzt wrote:It's either a missile or CM that has a 10km wide wedge. Can't remember off-hand.


Missiles generally have a 10km x 10km wedge. CMs have wedges at least 50% larger (and more powerful than that of an attack missile) on a side.

Pinnace wedges are between 25 and 35km on a side. The heavy cruiser Fearless wedge is 150km on a side, and SD wedges are 300km on a side.

Wedges are as square as a projected field of energy/gravity can be in a fictional universe. No rectangles! :mrgreen:

Hmm, I need to double check the only (and now only semi-canonical) Janyes book, but I seem to recall it gives all the dimensions of a Reliant-class BC's wedge; and it's not square. However the books and RCFs posts seem to just refer to width of the wedges.
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Grashtel   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:32 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
MaxxQ wrote:Missiles generally have a 10km x 10km wedge. CMs have wedges at least 50% larger (and more powerful than that of an attack missile) on a side.

Pinnace wedges are between 25 and 35km on a side. The heavy cruiser Fearless wedge is 150km on a side, and SD wedges are 300km on a side.

Wedges are as square as a projected field of energy/gravity can be in a fictional universe. No rectangles! :mrgreen:

Hmm, I need to double check the only (and now only semi-canonical) Janyes book, but I seem to recall it gives all the dimensions of a Reliant-class BC's wedge; and it's not square. However the books and RCFs posts seem to just refer to width of the wedges.

Maybe this infodump http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/100/1 has the info you are looking for?
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Vince   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:09 pm

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MaxxQ wrote:
kzt wrote:It's either a missile or CM that has a 10km wide wedge. Can't remember off-hand.


Missiles generally have a 10km x 10km wedge. CMs have wedges at least 50% larger (and more powerful than that of an attack missile) on a side.

Pinnace wedges are between 25 and 35km on a side. The heavy cruiser Fearless wedge is 150km on a side, and SD wedges are 300km on a side.

Wedges are as square as a projected field of energy/gravity can be in a fictional universe. No rectangles! :mrgreen:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MaxxQ, I think you meant LAC when you said pinnace above.

Pinnace wedges are small compared to ship and ship-killer missile and counter-missile wedges. (I get the impression that man portable SAMs's impeller wedges seem to be much smaller than a pinnace's wedge though.) Apparently the fusion plants that pinnaces have to use puts a hard limit on their wedge size and power. Admiral Tourville:
Ashes of Victory, Chapter 13 wrote:"But like you, I was thinking about the hardware side of his report and wishing the Board had been given a chance to see it before it issued its official conclusions," the citizen admiral went on. "Not that it would have convinced the doubters . . . or even me—fully, I mean—I suppose. It just doesn't seem possible that even the Manties could squeeze a fusion plant, and a full set of beta nodes, down into a LAC hull and then find room to cram in a godawful graser like the one Diamato described, as well!"
"I've never really understood that," Honeker said, admitting a degree of technical ignorance no "proper" people's commissioner would display. "I mean, we put fusion plants into pinnaces, and isn't a LAC just a scaled-up pinnace, when all's said and done?"
"Um." Tourville scratched an eyebrow while he considered the best way to explain. "I can see why you might think that," he acknowledged after a moment, "but it's not just a matter of scale. Or, rather, it is a matter of scale, in a way, but one in which the difference is so great as to create a difference in kind, as well.
"A pinnace has a far weaker wedge than any regular warship or merchantman. It's enormously smaller, for one thing, not more than a kilometer in width, and less powerful. The little hip-pocket fusion plants we put into small craft couldn't even begin to power an all-up wedge for a ship the size of a LAC. Which is just as well, because they use old-fashioned mag bottle technology and laser-fired fusing that's not a lot more advanced than they were using back on Old Earth Ante Diaspora. We've made a hell of a lot of advances since then, of course, in order to shoehorn the plants down to fit into pinnaces, but the way they're built puts a low absolute ceiling on their output.
"Even the biggest pinnace or assault shuttle comes in at well under a thousand tons, though, and a worthwhile LAC has to be in the thirty- to fifty-thousand-ton range just to pack in its impellers and any armament at all. Remember that courier boats in the same size range don't carry any weapons or defenses and just barely manage to find someplace to squeeze in a hyper generator. A LAC may be smaller than a starship, but it still has to be able to achieve high acceleration rates (which means a military grade compensator), produce sidewalls, power its weapons—and find places to mount them—and generally act like a serious warship, or else people would simply ignore it. Which means that, like any starship, LACs need modern grav-fusing plants to maintain the power levels they require. And there are limits on how small you can make one of those."
Italics are the author's, boldface, underlined and large size text is my emphasis.

And in we learn that pinnace's are designed to put boarding parties aboard starships that are under way outside of gravity waves, which would be much harder to do if they had big impeller wedges (although at the time of this quote, pinnaces had a lower acceleration than military starships). It's much easier to conduct a boarding action with a pinnace on a starship underway on impeller drive if there is little chance of a pinnace's weaker impeller wedge contacting a starship's much more powerful impeller wedge:
On Basilisk Station, Chapter 29 wrote:Her mind shied away from the thought of firing into an unarmed freighter, but if Coglin refused to heave to, she would have no choice, and she castigated herself for using all three pinnaces for the Marines' combat drop. She could have held one of the boarding shuttles for that, fleshed it out with her cutters, if she'd had to, and retained at least one pinnace aboard Fearless. She had the acceleration and the time to overhaul Sirius, and pinnaces were expressly designed, among other things, to put boarding parties aboard ships under way. Her velocity when she overtook the freighter would be barely four thousand KPS greater than her quarry's. Pinnace impeller drives were far weaker than a regular starship's, but if she'd dropped a boatload of Marines or even armed Navy ratings as she overran Sirius, its drive would have sufficed to decelerate for a boarding rendezvous.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by SharkHunter   » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:05 am

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Hence the new use of LACs for screening elements: not only can hey launch their own CM's in defense of their fleet, but they also have their PDLCs and spine laser to assist. So far they've just been used in fleet actions, but keep in mind that HAH is starting to let fleet groups position independently because of that.

In any long distance fleet action, the LACs don't have to hold position nearly as perfectly as an in-close CM or drone would. Wedge wise, they simply have to close the targetable angles by 70-80% so that the warships own PDLC's and CM's have a smaller job to do. At DDM and MDM distances, a bit ago on paper I figured it would take as little as 3 LACs per side to make virtually any starship [protected by a bow wall] nearly unhittable. Of course if the LACs are destroyed, that goes away, but how many enemy ships have survived three RMN salvos lately?
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by MaxxQ   » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:30 am

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Vince wrote:Snipped all of that just to say...


Ooops! ;)
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Somtaaw   » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:55 am

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MaxxQ wrote:
Vince wrote:Snipped all of that just to say...


Ooops! ;)


Been spending too much snogging Shannon have you Maxx? :lol:

"Dont worry Shannon, my pinnace wedge is way bigger than it looks!"

"my pinnace can dock with you underway despite the wedges."

and so on, where's cthia to take this and run with it
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:03 am

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Grashtel wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm, I need to double check the only (and now only semi-canonical) Janyes book, but I seem to recall it gives all the dimensions of a Reliant-class BC's wedge; and it's not square. However the books and RCFs posts seem to just refer to width of the wedges.

Maybe this infodump http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/100/1 has the info you are looking for?

Thanks, but no. That has the width, throat height, and after aspect height (for an SD); but not the length.

I'm pretty sure Jayne's Royal Manticoran Navy has length, width, throat, and after values for a BC. But I forgot to look last night, and those are the one Honoverse resource I don't have an electronic copy of; so I can't quickly check now from work.
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Re: Knife fighting with cm's
Post by Rob the Fiend   » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:39 am

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If you do the math: 190-40=150 150/2=75
So if the wedge is square, 300/75=4,
it gives an angle of 1:4 = 14.04 deg.
if 600km long 1:8 = 7.13 deg.
if 450km long 1:6 = 9.46 deg.

The illustration in the infodump looks like its,
at least, 60 deg(30+30).
That would mean a wedge "only" 150km long.
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