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US Presidential Candidates

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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:46 am

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biochem wrote:I am getting seriously tired of these #NeverTrump Republican elites! They are making themselves look bad (and the Republican party with them). Trump is a jerk and the majority of the people voting for him don't like him. BUT what the clueless elites don't seem to be getting because "he's not our kind", is that the voters are mad. They have legitimate grievances with those in power and are willing to support a jerk whom they dislike because they feel it is their best option. The elites need to be looking in the mirror. They have made people so desperate that they will support and obnoxious jerk over them. By spending more time attacking their own party's candidate they look 1) like sore losers and 2) totally clueless about their own culpability.

snip


It appears that the elites take a century to thoroughly abuse their power. We had the revolution and general disaffection sweeping the world a century ago that left use with the post WWII world. The elites of the time took the USSR to its logical conclusion, the social democracies of the world into globalism and consolidated their power through increased use of unelected bureaucrats.

This whole cycle is being seen as reaching untenable degrees. The rank and file citizen of Britain wants our national sovereignty restored. The Brits backing out of the EU, the move towards a more populist US and China is moving towards greater private ownership. One hopes that these passionate national movements do not spark hostilities as similar movements did a century ago.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:50 am

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biochem wrote:I am getting seriously tired of these #NeverTrump Republican elites! They are making themselves look bad (and the Republican party with them). Trump is a jerk and the majority of the people voting for him don't like him. BUT what the clueless elites don't seem to be getting because "he's not our kind", is that the voters are mad. They have legitimate grievances with those in power and are willing to support a jerk whom they dislike because they feel it is their best option. The elites need to be looking in the mirror. They have made people so desperate that they will support and obnoxious jerk over them. By spending more time attacking their own party's candidate they look 1) like sore losers and 2) totally clueless about their own culpability.


While there are degrees of truth sprinkled throughout that, calling Trump a simple "obnoxious jerk" is sugar coating things to extraordinary degree.

We are talking about a guy who went on national television and said we should murder the family members of terror suspects. Thus embracing state sponsored terrorism by the United States. That goes a little beyond "obnoxious jerk" to "dangerous lunatic".


To elites:

1. It's the economy stupid!!! Not your economy of Wall Street and Silicon Valley. But the main street economy. The working class and the middle class are still in a recession. You don't count it as one because the economic indicators you care about say it's not. But the economic indicators Main street cares about say that the every day economy is still bad.

2. The elites broke the economy, got rich, never paid for it and the normal people suffered.


You realize Trump is the poster boy for those exact "elites" you are talking about right? He's lived his entire life getting rich off of fleecing the middle class and robbing them blind and laying them off en masse. And he's not going to stop any time soon.


3. The lousy one-sided trade deals that the US keeps signing are outsourcing normal people's jobs while making the elites rich.



Again, you are describing Trump to a tee.

4. Immigration. When the economy is good, few care. But in this bad economy, people don't want the competition. It's like the lousy trade deals just insourced instead of outsourced. Good paying construction jobs have been replaced by Mexican workers. Those unemployed workers aren't happy. STEM jobs are being replaced by H1B workers from India and China.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-e ... RQ20150802

"Donald Trump is staking his run for U.S. president in part on a vow to protect American jobs. But this month, one of his companies, the elite Mar-a-Lago Club resort in Florida, applied to import 70 foreign workers to serve as cooks, wait staff and cleaners.

A Reuters analysis of U.S. government data reveals that this is business as usual in the New York property magnate's empire."



Again, the "elites" you are ranting at? Trump is a long time club member.

The difference is on top of being directly involved in doing EVERYTHING you are saying people are upset about here, he's also a dangerously narcissistic con man with no impulse control whatsoever who has spent his entire life surrounding himself with yes man who tell him he can do no wrong even while he screws up over and over and over and over and who now wants to be put in charge of the most powerful country on earth based on nothing but playing reality TV star appealing to the raw ID of a bunch of angry idiots. It's like that ridiculous movie Idiocracy has suddenly become prophetic documentary.

He'll quite possibly be the destruction of the GOP as a viable national party for a generation to come. Which I don't really give a crap about, good riddance until they grow up and become interested in actually doing the job of governing the nation again, but those other "elites" you are directing your rant at do care and that's why they're in a panic. Of course they *have* brought this all on themselves by deliberately stoking ignorance and zenophobia for the last couple of decades as tools to motivate the base so I don't feel all that bad for them now that someone has come along and used those same tools they've been weaponizing for so long and wrested control of the mob from them.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:59 am

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Thanks for further illustrating just how pissed off the electorate is, gcomeau. To his supporters, the idea might well be, Sure he is an elite, but he is OUR elite. The hope or expectation is that he will behave less like the elites that got us to this point and more like elites that want to take care of their base.

The rest of us see Hillary as the epitome of political corruption and will literally vote for a diseased camel before we vote for her. Trump might or might not be worse than a diseased camel, he isn't Hillary. Cela suffit.
Last edited by PeterZ on Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:04 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Thanks for further illustrating just how pissed off the electorate is, gcomeau. To his supporters, the idea might well be, Sure he is an elite, but he is OUR elite. The hope or expectation is that he will behave less like the elites that got us to this point and more like elites that want to take care of their base.

The rest of us see Hillary as the epitome of political corruption and will literally vote for a diseased camel before we vote for her. Trump might or might not be worse than a diseased camel, he isn't Hillary.


While I frankly think the Democratic establishment deserves a loss for pushing Clinton over Sanders, voting for Trump because you don't like the corruption level of Hillary is like opting for Ebola over the flu because screw the flu... you had that once and it was unpleasant. But haven't tried Ebola yet! Maybe it'll be better than it looks...

It would be nice if everyone just walked and went third party this year... but if I'm wishing for things that won't happen...
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:17 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Thanks for further illustrating just how pissed off the electorate is, gcomeau. To his supporters, the idea might well be, Sure he is an elite, but he is OUR elite. The hope or expectation is that he will behave less like the elites that got us to this point and more like elites that want to take care of their base.

The rest of us see Hillary as the epitome of political corruption and will literally vote for a diseased camel before we vote for her. Trump might or might not be worse than a diseased camel, he isn't Hillary.


While I frankly think the Democratic establishment deserves a loss for pushing Clinton over Sanders, voting for Trump because you don't like the corruption level of Hillary is like opting for Ebola over the flu because screw the flu... you had that once and it was unpleasant. But haven't tried Ebola yet! Maybe it'll be better than it looks...

It would be nice if everyone just walked and went third party this year... but if I'm wishing for things that won't happen...


I don't agree with the characterization of course. I would characterize it as Hillary's proven over decades that she is both corrupt and practiced at taking advantage of our political system to further her corrupt goals. Trump may well be corrupt, we don't have proof that his corruption is at Hillary's level. Nor do we have proof that he has the political skill to milk the system to satisfy what corruption he possesses. What we do have is that in order for trump to consolidate his political power, he needs to pay attention to his political base who are not elites.

All in all it is difficult to view Hillary as better for the US than Trump. So, diseased camel he may be, his disease is demonstrably less virulent than what attends Hillary.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Daryl   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:18 am

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I agree with the assessments of Hillary here, how the US system came up with these two is an object lesson.
A little surprised to hear Trump described as an "elite".
To me he is a crass and vulgar yob (bogan in our terms), who simply has money. I thought elites were talented and intelligent, or at least acted it.
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:12 am

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Aren't Trump's numbers tanking big time? To the point where he's showing as loosing red states?

Long way to go yet of course.

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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:47 am

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One poll had her winning a head to head by 8% but tied when the Libertarian was included.

This election is weird.

Annachie wrote:Aren't Trump's numbers tanking big time? To the point where he's showing as loosing red states?

Long way to go yet of course.

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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:21 am

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PeterZ wrote:
gcomeau wrote:While I frankly think the Democratic establishment deserves a loss for pushing Clinton over Sanders, voting for Trump because you don't like the corruption level of Hillary is like opting for Ebola over the flu because screw the flu... you had that once and it was unpleasant. But haven't tried Ebola yet! Maybe it'll be better than it looks...

It would be nice if everyone just walked and went third party this year... but if I'm wishing for things that won't happen...


I don't agree with the characterization of course. I would characterize it as Hillary's proven over decades that she is both corrupt and practiced at taking advantage of our political system to further her corrupt goals. Trump may well be corrupt, we don't have proof that his corruption is at Hillary's level.


Perhaps you should define what corruption entails to you, because I find that statement dumbfounding.


Nor do we have proof that he has the political skill to milk the system to satisfy what corruption he possesses.


That one I'll give you, best case scenario is we get 4 years of an ineffectual humiliation. But if you actually suspect he lacks the political skill to even get anything done for himself how do you think he will have the skill to get anything done for anyone else... which is a FAR harder thing to do?
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Re: US Presidential Candidates
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:49 am

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Early in her career she used futures contracts to siphon/launder bribes. Her first entry into futures trading resulted in a sequence of perfectly timed trades that resulted in a handsome profit. I suspect that the trades were manufactured to hide a payoff.

Her foundation has amassed in excess of $100 million from donation provided by foreign nations that she could extend her influence to aid. The same is true for foreign companies needing State Dept. assistance. Was there a quid pro quo? Yes, but it cannot be proven. Even so, she used a private email server to avoid having her emails opened to scrutiny. Her system was quite a bit less secure, but she adopted it anyway to aid her in her influence peddling.

Provable corruption? Maybe, maybe not. Is the list of circumstances convincing evidence that she is a corrupt Politician? Yes, why yes it is.

As for Trump's capabilities, if he tries but fails at everything he says he will attempt to do, that is still better than having the Queen of Corruption herself solidifying the political mechanisms for the continued increasing levels of corruption we have seen in recent years.

Better to have a bombastic a$$hat get those elites at each other's throats trying to politically backstab each other then to have those elites unified by a competent crook.

gcomeau wrote:
PeterZ wrote:
I don't agree with the characterization of course. I would characterize it as Hillary's proven over decades that she is both corrupt and practiced at taking advantage of our political system to further her corrupt goals. Trump may well be corrupt, we don't have proof that his corruption is at Hillary's level.


Perhaps you should define what corruption entails to you, because I find that statement dumbfounding.


Nor do we have proof that he has the political skill to milk the system to satisfy what corruption he possesses.


That one I'll give you, best case scenario is we get 4 years of an ineffectual humiliation. But if you actually suspect he lacks the political skill to even get anything done for himself how do you think he will have the skill to get anything done for anyone else... which is a FAR harder thing to do?
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